Which Variable Is the Cause of Most Missed Shots

[jbart65]

I stand by my statement. A player that doesn't use spin on most shots simply can't play. Watch ANY pro under the sun, they all spin the ball about every shot. Even the 9 ball! We went through this for years and years and years on here.

Not trying to rehash what is apparently a chronic debate, but let's say you are right.

How much spin on average? Quarter tip? Half tip? Something else?

Also: What would be the point of using some spin if a variation of center ball gets the CB close to the intended mark?

 

[gregcantrall]

Yikes!

So when you shoot Arts is it using a system. Shirley it wouldn't be at random.

 

[ShootingArts]

I stand by my statement. A player that doesn't use spin on most shots simply can't play. Watch ANY pro under the sun, they all spin the ball about every shot. Even the 9 ball! We went through this for years and years and years on here.

Hu, you spent years on here telling us you beat bangers and made your living doing that. Sure, in a hustling case like that, the less flashy the longer you keep your hook. You're not beating any legit players on legit equipment without spin on most shots.

Now someone is going to bring up "The Taiwanese players rarely spin the ball". Yeah right, go watch the reruns on the Hanoi Open of the Ko Brothers and tell me they don't spin the ball.

I wish McCready were still around on the forum to tell us to "play all over the CB" like pool was intended to be played. Or any match Strickland commentates.

Two of the bangers I beat were Johnny Archer and Danny Medina.

Hu

 

[iusedtoberich]

The table layout dictates the CB pattern. The pattern dictates how to hit the CB for any given shot. It's not a choice of hit the ball this way or that way. If you want the CB to end up at X, and the OB to end up at Y (especially if Y is not a pocket, such as when playing safe, or one hole), then there is only one single way to strike the CB for that shot. It does not come down to preference of "I can still get the CB to go there with draw only". It's not possible. Play pocket games where the speed of the OB must be controlled and this is even more prevalent.

All that is to say, if a player can't play at any spot on the CB, at any given time, they will never be a player, because they won't have all the shots in their bag.

Now, I didn't say one must spin every single shot at the edge of the miscue limit. On the other hand, this whole line of conversation I'm on started with @Jaden saying:

"Easy way around that. Don't use side spin and make sure you're truly aligned on center ball. Almost anything and anywhere you want to get on the table can be gotten to with speed control. Focus on that."

That's simply not true. If a player is saying that, even if they are 800 speed, I'd bet the farm that when watching that player in a real match they will be spinning the CB most of the shots. I'm not a pool banging square that doesn't know how to play. I might be a lower level than some of the posters here, but I'm not naïve enough to believe that you don't need spin.

Teaching someone to play without spin is imo the worst advice in pool. Worse than saying not to drop your elbow on any shot that needs some speed.

I've said my piece, carry on

 

[ideologist]

For a relatively experienced player, assuming your aim is correct and your stroke is straight, in your opinion, which of the 3 variable miscalculations causes the most missed shots when applying spin to the Cue Ball?

1) Misjudging Cue Ball Squirt / Deflection?
2) Misjudging Cue Ball Swerve?
3) Misjudging CB to OB Spin Induced Throw

For myself, I think 3 causes my most misses if I’ve spinned it slightly more or less than planned. 2 is the second most likely cause of my misses, particularly if it’s bottom inside or outside, if I’ve elevated my cue slightly and if I don’t stroke the shot quite at the pace I planned especially if I decelerate and the swerve invariably gets me. Misjudging the cue ball deflection is the least likely of these 3 variables causing misses, at least for me.

You left off the obvious "poor stance/positioning"

If your stroke is straight and your aim is correct, the placement of your body is the only thing that will truly cause a miss

 

[bbb]

Also: What would be the point of using some spin if a variation of center ball gets the CB close to the intended mark?

below is an example of spin vs no spin and why i think in this case spin is better
lets say you are playing onepocket (forget about the other balls)
and you want to come off the 7 and freeze or get real close to the 2
you can use a rolling ball with spin(yellow line)
or
stun/draw (red line)
to get on the 2
in this case i think the rolling ball with spin is the better choice because you can control the speed better (IMO)
the stun/draw is much harder to control a soft landing (at least for me)
@Jaden and @iusedtoberich ....your thoughts?

 

[Nyquil]

For a relatively experienced player, assuming your aim is correct and your stroke is straight, in your opinion, which of the 3 variable miscalculations causes the most missed shots when applying spin to the Cue Ball?

1) Misjudging Cue Ball Squirt / Deflection?
2) Misjudging Cue Ball Swerve?
3) Misjudging CB to OB Spin Induced Throw

For myself, I think 3 causes my most misses if I’ve spinned it slightly more or less than planned. 2 is the second most likely cause of my misses, particularly if it’s bottom inside or outside, if I’ve elevated my cue slightly and if I don’t stroke the shot quite at the pace I planned especially if I decelerate and the swerve invariably gets me. Misjudging the cue ball deflection is the least likely of these 3 variables causing misses, at least for me.

4) Alcohol

 

[ShootingArts]

The table layout dictates the CB pattern. The pattern dictates how to hit the CB for any given shot. It's not a choice of hit the ball this way or that way. If you want the CB to end up at X, and the OB to end up at Y (especially if Y is not a pocket, such as when playing safe, or one hole), then there is only one single way to strike the CB for that shot. It does not come down to preference of "I can still get the CB to go there with draw only". It's not possible. Play pocket games where the speed of the OB must be controlled and this is even more prevalent.

All that is to say, if a player can't play at any spot on the CB, at any given time, they will never be a player, because they won't have all the shots in their bag.

Now, I didn't say one must spin every single shot at the edge of the miscue limit. On the other hand, this whole line of conversation I'm on started with @Jaden saying:

"Easy way around that. Don't use side spin and make sure you're truly aligned on center ball. Almost anything and anywhere you want to get on the table can be gotten to with speed control. Focus on that."

That's simply not true. If a player is saying that, even if they are 800 speed, I'd bet the farm that when watching that player in a real match they will be spinning the CB most of the shots. I'm not a pool banging square that doesn't know how to play. I might be a lower level than some of the posters here, but I'm not naïve enough to believe that you don't need spin.

Teaching someone to play without spin is imo the worst advice in pool. Worse than saying not to drop your elbow on any shot that needs some speed.

I've said my piece, carry on

I could carry on, then again I can let Joshua Filler do my talking for me.

Jaden didn't mention angles according to your "quote". I didn't verify if it was accurate or not. However, your post above, your idea there is only one way to do something, is ridiculous enough on the face of it that there isn't really any room for discussion with a closed mind.

Follow up with more Filler video. Watch him run balls for hours. Then get back with me on the gotta use extreme sidespin on almost every shot thing. Even playing nine and ten ball there are usually better options. Only you can pull the scales from your eyes.

Spinning balls should be an option and people are taught how to spin them. However, they should also be taught that there are usually better options. I notice Filler shooting a lot of follow shots compared to many players, one of the things that often negates the need for lots of sidespin. The more we simplify this game the better we play.

Hu

 

[R2PQZ]

The size of the bet. Some players perform well for a big payoff.

 

[mr3cushion]

below is an example of spin vs no spin and why i think in this case spin is better
lets say you are playing onepocket (forget about the other balls)
and you want to come off the 7 and freeze or get real close to the 2
you can use a rolling ball with spin(yellow line)
or
stun/draw (red line)
to get on the 2
in this case i think the rolling ball with spin is the better choice because you can control the speed better (IMO)
the stun/draw is much harder to control a soft landing (at least for me)
@Jaden and @iusedtoberich ....your thoughts?
View attachment 784266

Larry, just as in 3C, when an OB is close to the cushion trying to pick up that '3rd rail.

The CB can contact that cushion in several points within 1", same here to try and 'Land on the OB'!

The 'Spin' on the CB will help 'Nuzzle' up to the OB softly.

 

[gregcantrall]

My variable starts with attitude.
I preference to working in positive. I strive to remember exactly how I felt when I accomplished a victory in a hard fought game. Shrug:
Then comes survey and construction of shooting platform then execute the mechanical. Pistons provide most efficient power. I think. Perhaps the Wankel. Nope
By following the prescription exactly, it becomes easy to identify a bust in the program.
So as Yogi said, "half the game is 80 percent mental". Or was it 85?

 

[boogieman]

The table layout dictates the CB pattern. The pattern dictates how to hit the CB for any given shot. It's not a choice of hit the ball this way or that way. If you want the CB to end up at X, and the OB to end up at Y (especially if Y is not a pocket, such as when playing safe, or one hole), then there is only one single way to strike the CB for that shot. It does not come down to preference of "I can still get the CB to go there with draw only". It's not possible. Play pocket games where the speed of the OB must be controlled and this is even more prevalent.

All that is to say, if a player can't play at any spot on the CB, at any given time, they will never be a player, because they won't have all the shots in their bag.

Now, I didn't say one must spin every single shot at the edge of the miscue limit. On the other hand, this whole line of conversation I'm on started with @Jaden saying:

"Easy way around that. Don't use side spin and make sure you're truly aligned on center ball. Almost anything and anywhere you want to get on the table can be gotten to with speed control. Focus on that."

That's simply not true. If a player is saying that, even if they are 800 speed, I'd bet the farm that when watching that player in a real match they will be spinning the CB most of the shots. I'm not a pool banging square that doesn't know how to play. I might be a lower level than some of the posters here, but I'm not naïve enough to believe that you don't need spin.

Teaching someone to play without spin is imo the worst advice in pool. Worse than saying not to drop your elbow on any shot that needs some speed.

I've said my piece, carry on

I'll tell ya though, I learned back in the 80s and 90s and nobody told you jack s$%#. Once I learned about english at about 10 years old, I never shot a shot without it, and to extremes. A few years ago I put myself on a one month self imposed "diet" of vertical axis only. I learned more in that month than I had in 20 years of not knowing crap. I agree, there is some amount of spin and english on most shots. If for nothing else but to get a more favorable result. You don't "need" it in most cases, but a tiny bit of spin can make the next shot much easier in a lot of circumstances. IMO making the shot and shape are one in the same, and a lot of times that takes spin.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I could carry on, then again I can let Joshua Filler do my talking for me.

Jaden didn't mention angles according to your "quote". I didn't verify if it was accurate or not. However, your post above, your idea there is only one way to do something, is ridiculous enough on the face of it that there isn't really any room for discussion with a closed mind.

Follow up with more Filler video. Watch him run balls for hours. Then get back with me on the gotta use extreme sidespin on almost every shot thing. Even playing nine and ten ball there are usually better options. Only you can pull the scales from your eyes.

Spinning balls should be an option and people are taught how to spin them. However, they should also be taught that there are usually better options. I notice Filler shooting a lot of follow shots compared to many players, one of the things that often negates the need for lots of sidespin. The more we simplify this game the better we play.

Hu

The quote was cut and paste, I did not alter it.

Straight pool is like 8 ball. Lots of short stop shots when played well. Less of bouncing off the rails like 9 ball. I bet about 70% of the shots that filler does go to the rail in his big run here have some spin. And probably the same percentage for the break shots.

In 9 ball, again the shots that actually bounce off the rails probably will be in the range of 70% have spin.

 

[iusedtoberich]

It will be interesting seeing the digi-ball released and into the hands of top pros. Then also into the hands of 600 range players. I’d be willing to bet the CB placement percentages will be very close between the two groups. With the main difference being the 600 dogged the shot.

 

[jbart65]

below is an example of spin vs no spin and why i think in this case spin is better
lets say you are playing onepocket (forget about the other balls)
and you want to come off the 7 and freeze or get real close to the 2
you can use a rolling ball with spin(yellow line)
or
stun/draw (red line)
to get on the 2
in this case i think the rolling ball with spin is the better choice because you can control the speed better (IMO)
the stun/draw is much harder to control a soft landing (at least for me)
@Jaden and @iusedtoberich ....your thoughts?
View attachment 784266

Good example, bbb. I find follow with a touch of side is more controllable repeatedly than stun or draw.

 

[ShootingArts]

Arts, do you think he'd play anyone 'Without a Tip'?

No tip on the end of the shaft!

He wouldn't play them long. There are a lot of people that could beat him like a rented mule without a tip. I played without tip or ferrule one night. I kept winning until they made me quit using the stick when a large piece of it hit a man's wife sitting at a nearby table. I had to admit that was a bit much so I round filed the stick.

In the mid 60''s - 80 the Top 1 Hole player in the Midwest beat All 'Road Players' that came thru.

He Never used more than 1/4 Tip of Any English, Follow, Draw or R & L.

Doing that he had no need for chalk. I hit that far off center with a mop handle without miscuing.

So when you shoot Arts is it using a system. Shirley it wouldn't be at random.

Always a plan if not a system shooting arts. Never shot Shirley. She was half owner of a biker bar and all I had was a .357. One look at her and I knew anything that wouldn't blow an angry grizzly backwards just wasn't enough gun for the job!

It will be interesting seeing the digi-ball released and into the hands of top pros. Then also into the hands of 600 range players. I’d be willing to bet the CB placement percentages will be very close between the two groups. With the main difference being the 600 dogged the shot.

Ah, but according to your earlier post that only one shot will give the same result. It would be impossible to dog the shot and have the cue ball go to the same place as a person making the ball. According to you, different shots have to give different results.

By the way, if the digiball will show the truth or error of your claim, I'll bet now even, with the bet being anywhere from one hundred to five hundred, that players with a Fargo of over 750 have better cue ball placement than players with a Fargo of under 650. 10:30PM October 14th right now. The window is open for twenty-four hours.

Hu

 

[Mensabum]

The table layout dictates the CB pattern. The pattern dictates how to hit the CB for any given shot. It's not a choice of hit the ball this way or that way. If you want the CB to end up at X, and the OB to end up at Y (especially if Y is not a pocket, such as when playing safe, or one hole), then there is only one single way to strike the CB for that shot. It does not come down to preference of "I can still get the CB to go there with draw only". It's not possible. Play pocket games where the speed of the OB must be controlled and this is even more prevalent.

All that is to say, if a player can't play at any spot on the CB, at any given time, they will never be a player, because they won't have all the shots in their bag.

Now, I didn't say one must spin every single shot at the edge of the miscue limit. On the other hand, this whole line of conversation I'm on started with @Jaden saying:

"Easy way around that. Don't use side spin and make sure you're truly aligned on center ball. Almost anything and anywhere you want to get on the table can be gotten to with speed control. Focus on that."

That's simply not true. If a player is saying that, even if they are 800 speed, I'd bet the farm that when watching that player in a real match they will be spinning the CB most of the shots. I'm not a pool banging square that doesn't know how to play. I might be a lower level than some of the posters here, but I'm not naïve enough to believe that you don't need spin.

Teaching someone to play without spin is imo the worst advice in pool. Worse than saying not to drop your elbow on any shot that needs some speed.

I've said my piece, carry on

I agree. I don't think anyone is advocating teaching players not to use spin. Be tough to win at one hole if you didn't use English. It makes many shots easier. I'm lazy like the next guy, so anything I can do to get by, I usually will.
Vertical axis, speed and cut angle are excellent ways to get just about anywhere you wanna go.
I like to park my ass mid-table and work around it from there. I'm speaking of 8 ball, 9, & 10 ball. So much of it winds up being a park and poke routine. Over and over and over, ad nauseum. Can get boring. No doubt. 'Juice' can add flavor to an otherwise 'boring' dish. Lol. I guess it comes down to what style of play you're most comfortable with and which games you enjoy.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I worked my ass off trying to avoid relying on spin and use only vertical, speed and angle.
I'm sure there are others who found the transition to that style of play much easier, as well as others who avoid it.

 

[gregcantrall]

One look at her and I knew anything that wouldn't blow an angry grizzly backwards just wasn't enough gun for the job!

That trigger a true story.
Weaverville CA in the early '60s. Or maybe 50s
She was known as Grizzly Woman and earned it. A large and unattractive native from the Hoopa reservation. Pretty sure it was the New York. The Diggins was the across the street option for drinking and socializing. Anyways she had a drink and was "in the mood, for love". She approached a booth that sat two , (uh Rednecks. She made one an offer. Rather than honor her offer. He would Never consider "getting on her " and would Never honor her offer. It was spoken with a sneer. His across the table partner paused the uprising of the beer to snicker. It was his last action. She carried a 357 in her purse. Shot the rude one first and the second got it for a Snicker!!!!!?
Life's lessons I always try to be respectful.
Grizzly Woman went to The Coo Coo Nest. Shrug

 

[garczar]

It will be interesting seeing the digi-ball released and into the hands of top pros. Then also into the hands of 600 range players. I’d be willing to bet the CB placement percentages will be very close between the two groups. With the main difference being the 600 dogged the shot.

No way Jose.

 

[garczar]

He wouldn't play them long. There are a lot of people that could beat him like a rented mule without a tip. I played without tip or ferrule one night. I kept winning until they made me quit using the stick when a large piece of it hit a man's wife sitting at a nearby table. I had to admit that was a bit much so I round filed the stick.



Doing that he had no need for chalk. I hit that far off center with a mop handle without miscuing.




Always a plan if not a system shooting arts. Never shot Shirley. She was half owner of a biker bar and all I had was a .357. One look at her and I knew anything that wouldn't blow an angry grizzly backwards just wasn't enough gun for the job!



Ah, but according to your earlier post that only one shot will give the same result. It would be impossible to dog the shot and have the cue ball go to the same place as a person making the ball. According to you, different shots have to give different results.

By the way, if the digiball will show the truth or error of your claim, I'll bet now even, with the bet being anywhere from one hundred to five hundred, that players with a Fargo of over 750 have better cue ball placement than players with a Fargo of under 650. 10:30PM October 14th right now. The window is open for twenty-four hours.

Hu

CB placement gets WAY better at 700+ Fargo's.