How many pros can a tour support?

[jbart65]

In light of the MR-WPA dispute, lots of speculation about how many great players a topnotch pro tour could support.

Right now there are 40-60 players who could plausibly win a major title. Just 10-15 would be considered regular threats. These numbers could also grow given the flood of talent in Europe and Asia.

All these players are somehow supporting themselves right now. How do they do it?

It's not match winnings. For now only the top 10, maybe the top 15, can support themselves by winnings.

Sponsorship, obviously. I figure there are enough sponsors to support one to four players in the biggest pool-playing countries. In the U.S., for example, SVB, Gorst, Woodward, Dominguez and, unthe til recently, Styer had sponsorship deals.

But for most players sponsor money is not great.

What else? Seems most top players are also personal coaches who offer lessons. It might be the most consistent income for many players.

Beyond that, some players get money from national governments or associations. Again, I assume it's not a huge amount.

Finally there is social media and marketing. Gorst, for example, sells a lot of autographed paraphernalia and the like. But this does not appear to be a lucrative venture for most.

Even if MR becomes very successful, and the WNT becomes like darts or snooker, a pro tour probably can't support more than 50 players and more like 25-30. Is that enough for the good off the sport? Probably.

The rest of the players will keep doing what they are already doing to support themselves.

As time goes on, though, the top 30-60 will eventually move beyond pool as they get older and need more income.

The good thing is, though, new young players will enter the sport and give it a go for a while to try to become one of the world's elite. So there will always be plenty of depth in a pro tour.

In a dream scenario, pool becomes bigger - and sponsors become bigger. Much like Nascar. More well-heeled sponsors will want to get involved.

Consider Sea Seoa. She had/has LG as one of her sponsors. Imagine if big entities like that got involved.

Whatever the case, still early days. The future of pro pool has arguably never looked brighter, but there are still dark days ahead.

 

[garczar]

Wow. Lot to digest brother, kinda rambling. Just exactly what are you asking here? Your thread title is vague to say the least. I'll just sling something and say MR's WNT is very well run/funded. More to do for sure but they are leading the pack. They have all the best best players(i don't count the Ch8b guys. Whole other world). No clue if this answer is on track with whatever you're asking.

 

[Black-Balled]

And the young musicians and athletes should considered equally deserving as well.

You get a dollar...and you get a dollar...and YOU get a dollar.

 

[justadub]

I ask folks who are knowledgeable than I...how many players are making a living, or close it, from pool today, vs before MR began the WNT?

From what little I've gleaned from reading over the years, there were only a few players even close to making a living in pool back then. (Only a few years ago.)
I could very well be wrong, but I have to believe that more players are making more money than before, and the WNT is still only in its infancy.

If it continues to develop, like other MR interests like snooker and darts, the WNT should only get bigger. Maybe not as big as snooker and/or darts, but bigger still than anything we've seen in pool.

I will always say I don't believe MR is perfect. I just think that if there's a line in the sand and a choice has to be made, it seems pretty obvious to me. It's too bad that it's come to this.

 

[jbart65]

Wow. Lot to digest brother, kinda rambling. Just exactly what are you asking here? Your thread title is vague to say the least. I'll just sling something and say MR's WNT is very well run/funded. More to do for sure but they are leading the pack. They have all the best best players(i don't count the Ch8b guys. Whole other world). No clue if this answer is on track with whatever you're asking.

Garczar, you don’t like any post more than a sentence long. If that!

It’s partly why I use lots of short sentences. What would Garczar say, I ask (well, not really).

I got off easy if all I got was a "rambling" criticism.

in any case, one of the worries about the MR-WPA standoff is that players won’t earn enough, only a handful of players will be able to scratch out a living and the game will wither on the vine.

Yet lots of players are somehow getting by. Can they keep it up? How much money does the sport need to fund regularly loaded fields? Where is it going to come from?

A bit rambling? Maybe you are right. But the future of pro pool does depend on securing steady and stabk revenue streams.

 

[garczar]

Garczar, you don’t like any post more than a sentence long. If that!

It’s partly why I use lots of short sentences. What would Garczar say, I ask (well, not really).

I got off easy if all I got was a "rambling" criticism.

in any case, one of the worries about the MR-WPA standoff is that players won’t earn enough, only a handful of players will be able to scratch out a living and the game will wither on the vine.

Yet lots of players are somehow getting by. Can they keep it up? How much money does the sport need to fund regularly loaded fields? Where is it going to come from?

A bit rambling? Maybe you are right. But the future of pro pool does depend on securing steady and stabk revenue streams.

No guarantees that all will do well $$$-wise. Hell, in the early days of the PGATour a lot of guys had side gigs and gambled to pay the rent. I'm not comparing today's PGA but i'm just saying that it might be a while til big payouts trickle further down the field. And you're dead on on long posts especially those that don't come to a point. I normally just drive on by. There are few guys on here that i'll read their 'novellas'. A few.

 

[King T]

In light of the MR-WPA dispute, lots of speculation about how many great players a topnotch pro tour could support.

Right now there are 40-60 players who could plausibly win a major title. Just 10-15 would be considered regular threats. These numbers could also grow given the flood of talent in Europe and Asia.

All these players are somehow supporting themselves right now. How do they do it?

It's not match winnings. For now only the top 10, maybe the top 15, can support themselves by winnings.

Sponsorship, obviously. I figure there are enough sponsors to support one to four players in the biggest pool-playing countries. In the U.S., for example, SVB, Gorst, Woodward, Dominguez and, unthe til recently, Styer had sponsorship deals.

But for most players sponsor money is not great.

What else? Seems most top players are also personal coaches who offer lessons. It might be the most consistent income for many players.

Beyond that, some players get money from national governments or associations. Again, I assume it's not a huge amount.

Finally there is social media and marketing. Gorst, for example, sells a lot of autographed paraphernalia and the like. But this does not appear to be a lucrative venture for most.

Even if MR becomes very successful, and the WNT becomes like darts or snooker, a pro tour probably can't support more than 50 players and more like 25-30. Is that enough for the good off the sport? Probably.

The rest of the players will keep doing what they are already doing to support themselves.

As time goes on, though, the top 30-60 will eventually move beyond pool as they get older and need more income.

The good thing is, though, new young players will enter the sport and give it a go for a while to try to become one of the world's elite. So there will always be plenty of depth in a pro tour.

In a dream scenario, pool becomes bigger - and sponsors become bigger. Much like Nascar. More well-heeled sponsors will want to get involved.

Consider Sea Seoa. She had/has LG as one of her sponsors. Imagine if big entities like that got involved.

Whatever the case, still early days. The future of pro pool has arguably never looked brighter, but there are still dark days ahead.

In light of the MR-WPA dispute, lots of speculation about how many great players a topnotch pro tour could support.

Right now there are 40-60 players who could plausibly win a major title. Just 10-15 would be considered regular threats. These numbers could also grow given the flood of talent in Europe and Asia.

All these players are somehow supporting themselves right now. How do they do it?

It's not match winnings. For now only the top 10, maybe the top 15, can support themselves by winnings.

Sponsorship, obviously. I figure there are enough sponsors to support one to four players in the biggest pool-playing countries. In the U.S., for example, SVB, Gorst, Woodward, Dominguez and, unthe til recently, Styer had sponsorship deals.

But for most players sponsor money is not great.

What else? Seems most top players are also personal coaches who offer lessons. It might be the most consistent income for many players.

Beyond that, some players get money from national governments or associations. Again, I assume it's not a huge amount.

Finally there is social media and marketing. Gorst, for example, sells a lot of autographed paraphernalia and the like. But this does not appear to be a lucrative venture for most.

Even if MR becomes very successful, and the WNT becomes like darts or snooker, a pro tour probably can't support more than 50 players and more like 25-30. Is that enough for the good off the sport? Probably.

The rest of the players will keep doing what they are already doing to support themselves.

As time goes on, though, the top 30-60 will eventually move beyond pool as they get older and need more income.

The good thing is, though, new young players will enter the sport and give it a go for a while to try to become one of the world's elite. So there will always be plenty of depth in a pro tour.

In a dream scenario, pool becomes bigger - and sponsors become bigger. Much like Nascar. More well-heeled sponsors will want to get involved.

Consider Sea Seoa. She had/has LG as one of her sponsors. Imagine if big entities like that got involved.

Whatever the case, still early days. The future of pro pool has arguably never looked brighter, but there are still dark days ahead.

In light of the MR-WPA dispute, lots of speculation about how many great players a topnotch pro tour could support.

Right now there are 40-60 players who could plausibly win a major title. Just 10-15 would be considered regular threats. These numbers could also grow given the flood of talent in Europe and Asia.

All these players are somehow supporting themselves right now. How do they do it?

It's not match winnings. For now only the top 10, maybe the top 15, can support themselves by winnings.

Sponsorship, obviously. I figure there are enough sponsors to support one to four players in the biggest pool-playing countries. In the U.S., for example, SVB, Gorst, Woodward, Dominguez and, unthe til recently, Styer had sponsorship deals.

But for most players sponsor money is not great.

What else? Seems most top players are also personal coaches who offer lessons. It might be the most consistent income for many players.

Beyond that, some players get money from national governments or associations. Again, I assume it's not a huge amount.

Finally there is social media and marketing. Gorst, for example, sells a lot of autographed paraphernalia and the like. But this does not appear to be a lucrative venture for most.

Even if MR becomes very successful, and the WNT becomes like darts or snooker, a pro tour probably can't support more than 50 players and more like 25-30. Is that enough for the good off the sport? Probably.

The rest of the players will keep doing what they are already doing to support themselves.

As time goes on, though, the top 30-60 will eventually move beyond pool as they get older and need more income.

The good thing is, though, new young players will enter the sport and give it a go for a while to try to become one of the world's elite. So there will always be plenty of depth in a pro tour.

In a dream scenario, pool becomes bigger - and sponsors become bigger. Much like Nascar. More well-heeled sponsors will want to get involved.

Consider Sea Seoa. She had/has LG as one of her sponsors. Imagine if big entities like that got involved.

Whatever the case, still early days. The future of pro pool has arguably never looked brighter, but there are still dark days ahead.

There are no dark days ahead not when the China, Vietnam, Indonesia, and many country's in Africa are still growing and some are just starting to produce real talent. As their fan base grows so will the opportunity for other sponsors to get involved.

As for the players, some or many will have to adopt the Olympic Teams way and work until the sponsor comes along.

 

[sjm]

In light of the MR-WPA dispute, lots of speculation about how many great players a topnotch pro tour could support.

Right now there are 40-60 players who could plausibly win a major title. Just 10-15 would be considered regular threats. These numbers could also grow given the flood of talent in Europe and Asia.

All these players are somehow supporting themselves right now. How do they do it?

It's not match winnings. For now only the top 10, maybe the top 15, can support themselves by winnings.

Sponsorship, obviously. I figure there are enough sponsors to support one to four players in the biggest pool-playing countries. In the U.S., for example, SVB, Gorst, Woodward, Dominguez and, unthe til recently, Styer had sponsorship deals.

But for most players sponsor money is not great.

What else? Seems most top players are also personal coaches who offer lessons. It might be the most consistent income for many players.

Beyond that, some players get money from national governments or associations. Again, I assume it's not a huge amount.

Finally there is social media and marketing. Gorst, for example, sells a lot of autographed paraphernalia and the like. But this does not appear to be a lucrative venture for most.

Even if MR becomes very successful, and the WNT becomes like darts or snooker, a pro tour probably can't support more than 50 players and more like 25-30. Is that enough for the good off the sport? Probably.

The rest of the players will keep doing what they are already doing to support themselves.

As time goes on, though, the top 30-60 will eventually move beyond pool as they get older and need more income.

The good thing is, though, new young players will enter the sport and give it a go for a while to try to become one of the world's elite. So there will always be plenty of depth in a pro tour.

In a dream scenario, pool becomes bigger - and sponsors become bigger. Much like Nascar. More well-heeled sponsors will want to get involved.

Consider Sea Seoa. She had/has LG as one of her sponsors. Imagine if big entities like that got involved.

Whatever the case, still early days. The future of pro pool has arguably never looked brighter, but there are still dark days ahead.

Most of this makes sense.

Matchroom's product, more than anything else, is the last sixteen of its majors (world 9-ball, UK Open, US Open, European Open and Hanoi Open), the World Pool Masters, the World Cup of Pool and the Mosconi. That means that many WNT pros will be almost invisible to most of Matchroom's core fan base and its sponsors. It is not clear why the amount of money players ranked below about 50th make would be of critical importance to Matchroom.

I think you are well grounded in your 50 number as the number of players a pro pool tour can likely support even if it succeeds.

Matchroom is doing a great job in growing our sport, but the real money will always be at the top of the talent pool. If the purses grow and grow, then more will be attracted to the sport, but grassroots level growth of the game does not happen overnight,

 

[jbart65]

That means that many WNT pros will be almost invisible to most of Matchroom's core fan base and its sponsors. It is not clear why how the amount of money players ranked below about 50th make would be of critical importance to Matchroom.

You are right. Any tour, just like pro golf or tennis, will be top heavy.

 

[skogstokig]

teaching, exhibitions, open a pool room. if the sport in general grows and the interest with it, these opportunities will also grow and be especially important for lower ranks.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Sport is performance based, not time based.

In a regular dayjob, you can show up for years, do an ok job, and be compensated a very good income. Your cube mate could be running circles around your performance, but not be getting paid more, or only slightly more. Dayjob is time based for the most part. You show up, you get paid.

Sport, if you are not at the top, you will be struggling. That is any sport. The top NFL players make 10's of millions per year, and they might have 15 year careers. The bottom NFL players might make only 1MM per year, and their career might be 4 years total.

 

[jbart65]

I am sure pool players would be happy to make 1 million a year for four years and retire!

I get your point though.

 

[Renegade_56]

A lot could be learned from Snooker in the UK.

Hint, they don't hold their major championships in bars. Bars are for gambling not spectators, You'll never get major advertising sponsorships in bars.

Big money in every sport comes from advertising and sponsorships.

 

[garczar]

A lot could be learned from Snooker in the UK.

Hint, they don't hold their major championships in bars. Bars are for gambling not spectators, You'll never get major advertising sponsorships in bars.

Big money in every sport comes from advertising and sponsorships.

Hint, speaking strictly from a US perspective: no one gives a flying fk what snooker in the UK does. Just sayin. What majors are held in bars btw? Does selling booze mean you can't have large events? Speaking of gambling don't most limey snoooooker fans bet on the game?? Oh the horror. People need to quit trying to compare the two games. Even worse are pool streams where the talking heads are always using snooker terms.

 

[Renegade_56]

Hint, speaking strictly from a US perspective: no one gives a flying fk what snooker in the UK does. Just sayin. What majors are held in bars btw? Does selling booze mean you can't have large events? Speaking of gambling don't most limey snoooooker fans bet on the game?? Oh the horror. People need to quit trying to compare the two games. Even worse are pool streams where the talking heads are always using snooker terms.

You ever see one of Ronnie O'Sullivans winner checks? He is a 7 time World Snooker champion believed to be worth about 26 million US Dollars. You are obviously as ignorant about Snooker as you are most other topics, it has a huge following world wide.

 

[garczar]

You ever see one of Ronnie O'Sullivans winner checks? He is a 7 time World Snooker champion believed to be worth about 26 million US Dollars. You are obviously as ignorant about Snooker as you are most other topics, it has a huge following world wide.

Not in the US it doesn't. Viewership in the States is miniscule at best hence my post. No need to get personal pal. Relax, then fk off.

 

[Fatboy]

I am sure pool players would be happy to make 1 million a year for four years and retire!

I get your point though.

99% of them would be broke in the 5th year……

 

[garczar]

You are right. Any tour, just like pro golf or tennis, will be top heavy.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/109 125th place made over a million. That's the lowest place that keeps their 'card' for next season. So Scotty made almost 30mill. and official 'dead last' still made a million. Top-heavy's not bad when there's this much $$$$$ to play for.

 

[skogstokig]

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/109 125th place made over a million. That's the lowest place that keeps their 'card' for next season. So Scotty made almost 30mill. and official 'dead last' still made a million. Top-heavy's not bad when there's this much $$$$$ to play for.

sure, and in the recent saudi tennis event daniil medvedev got 1.6 million basically for showing up. eliminated in first match, still made 25k/minute in that hour. pool will never get anywhere near that. imo we can't keep comparing to golf and tennis because they are such outliers in individual sports

 

[garczar]

sure, and in the recent saudi tennis event daniil medvedev got 1.6 million basically for showing up. eliminated in first match, still made 25k/minute in that hour. pool will never get anywhere near that. imo we can't keep comparing to golf and tennis because they are such outliers in individual sports

my point was that any sports tour is gonna have top-heavy payouts. because the top earner in pool right now has about 400k in official $ that just means those way down the pecking order(25th place has $53,000) aren't making much. yet. hopefully it keeps trending up.