Mosconi Cup 2024, Nov. 30-Dec. 3, Orlando

[jbart65]

The U.S. is losing for two simple reasons: They are not breaking as well and they are making just a few more crucial errors.

It's not a talent mismatch. It's not a case of lack of professionalism. It's not because they weren't well rested. Heck, the Asian players performed marvelously at the Reyes with no break after the Hanoi Open.

I haven't seen the stats, but it seems like the U.S. is having more dry breaks. They are also getting fewer looks at the lowest remaining ball. Shane hasn't been able to use the break to his advantage.

I'd give the edge in safety play to Europe, too. Alcaide, FSR, Shaw and Kaci are all tactically savvy.

SVB made the most costly safety when he left a relatively easy jump for a struggling Krause to pocket the one in the side and let Europe run away with a doubles match that was tied early on.

 

[garczar]

Agreed, on the woman in white.

Kind of a dead horse at this point, but I was talking about this.

View attachment 793881

I'm sure she is a lovely woman, but in the context of the MC I don't feel she is appropriate. I'd rather see an Allison Fisher, Jasmin Ouschan, someone who shows some respect to the game.

My apologies for ever bringing this up in the first place.

to be honest this one looks like a cross between little orphan annie and a west l.a. hooker. that outfit is hideous.

 

[jbart65]

The MVP so far to me has been Sanchez Ruiz. He has been almost flawless. He won his singles match and both doubles convincingly. No big errors at all like the one Shaw made on the eight.

FSR was the weak link in last year's Mosconi and played poorly at the Reyes. Not this week. He has been at the very top of his game.

On the flip side, SVB and Gorst have lost ALL their singles and doubles matches. These are two of the best five players in the world.

If just one of these guys played to his skill level, this is a close or tied match going into the final day. Impossible to win when your two best players are your two worst performers.

 

[garczar]

The 4" pockets just have to go, it isn't American Pool. This is the Mosconi Cup, not the O'Sullivan Cup, the 4" pockets are an abomination. This would be a much better exhibition match on 4.25" or 4.5" pockets, like pool is supposed to be played.

Tyler hasn't played that great, he just hasn't uncharacteristically missed as much as our other players. Gorst is fiddling with his equipment too much and is too robotic for this combination of pressure and time clock. Sky is made for this but can't pull it off on his own. SVB should gracefully bow out of MC invitations, he isn't a team player and probably does more harm to team morale than good. That being said, at least it hasn't been a complete blowout this year, we got closer. There were times I entertained the idea that we may keep it competitive.

On the other hand, it has been nice seeing Alcaide do so well with his family there, and to see the support that Micky Krause is getting. I find myself appreciating some of the Europeans more, they just stick to their fundamentals and do what is needed. Expect for Jayson, he is going a little overboard. But I guess that is his shtick.

Agree on the pocket size. If every pro event had wickets this snug pool's late resurgence would stall out. even worse is that all the keyboard kowboy chat-warriors think that their home poolhall should have tables exactly like this. bad idea.

 

[garczar]

I think we should beat the guy with a Balabushka who said, "Hey let's make the 5 ball purple".

Who the hell is this idiot, and what company did he work for that approved it? I hope he is in the unemployment line with the designer of the elephant balls.

The 'he' is a she. these horrid rocks were co-designed by aramith and emily at matchroom.

 

[jbart65]

Amazed in this day and age I can still go to a site and find debate on how women dress! AZBilliards is in a time warp!

 

[sammylane12]

he is better than both in the mosconi cup. it's just a different pressure from anything else in the pool calendar, and some players thrive under it while others underperforms badly. sky has been the best team USA player for years

That isn`t saying much. His career record is below 50%.

 

[jbart65]

Agree on the pocket size. If every pro event had wickets this snug pool's late resurgence would stall out. even worse is that all the keyboard kowboy chat-warriors think that their home poolhall should have tables exactly like this. bad idea.

I am agnostic on pocket size, not having played on 4-inch pockets.

Yet many top players, including SVB, Gorst and Filler, said they prefer tighter pockets on the WNT.

Whatever the case, the pros seem to have adjusted by and large. I don't want easy runouts, but I don't want excessively hard ones, either.

 

[jbart65]

I find it odd that some posters here refer to the Mosconi as an “exhibit.”

It’s anything but to me or to the fans in attendance, and if you listen to the players, it’s not to them, either. They are totally engaged and into it (save for perhaps one longtime regular).

I think of the Mosconi as the playoffs. Players performed throughout the year to earn points at ranking events not to be just “No. 1” or No. 2, but to earn a guaranteed spot on the Mosconi.

Lots of players explicitly say that is their goal.

The Mosconi itself, in turn, can elevate or damage reputations. SVB is always questioned about his performances. Gorst is getting that treatment now, too. Whereas players like Filler, Shaw and Niels Feijin burnish(ed) their reputations via the Mosconi.

The WNT majors are becoming massive events and I enjoy them thoroughly. They can be very intense affairs with the highest level of play.
But there is nothing like the Mosconi. The pressure is higher than at any other event on the tour. The fan engagement is the ultimate. And the players get to step out of their shells and show us who they really are.

That’s why Hanoi has become a big hit. It gets the pro tour closer to the Mosconi for major ranking events.

Maybe some fans want pool to be played quietly and in quiet places by quiet men and women. I am not one of them.

All sports are show businesses, too. Let the show (Shaw?) go on.

 

[garczar]

I find it odd that some posters here refer to the Mosconi as an “exhibit.”

It’s anything but to me or to the fans in attendance, and if you listen to the players, it’s not to them, either. They are totally engaged and into it (save for perhaps one longtime regular).

I think of the Mosconi as the playoffs. Players performed throughout the year to earn points at ranking events not to be just “No. 1” or No. 2, but to earn a guaranteed spot on the Mosconi.

Lots of players explicitly say that is their goal.

The Mosconi itself, in turn, can elevate or damage reputations. SVB is always questioned about his performances. Gorst is getting that treatment now, too. Whereas players like Filler, Shaw and Niels Feijin burnish(ed) their reputations via the Mosconi.

The WNT majors are becoming massive events and I enjoy them thoroughly. They can be very intense affairs with the highest level of play.
But there is nothing like the Mosconi. The pressure is higher than at any other event on the tour. The fan engagement is the ultimate. And the players get to step out of their shells and show us who they really are.

That’s why Hanoi has become a big hit. It gets the pro tour closer to the Mosconi for major ranking events.

Maybe some fans want pool to be played quietly and in quiet places by quiet men and women. I am not one of them.

All sports are show businesses, too. Let the show (Shaw?) go on.

Playing 9b in a race-to-five format is like playing craps. This event is showbiz made for entertainment value. It doesn't determine a champion of anything. Fun to watch show but don't try to read more into it in terms of what player(s) are actually better than another. Some players love team events, others would rather go to the dentist.

 

[vjmehra]

Playing 9b in a race-to-five format is like playing craps. This event is showbiz made for entertainment value. It doesn't determine a champion of anything. Fun to watch show but don't try to read more into it in terms of what player(s) are actually better than another. Some players love team events, others would rather go to the dentist.

Craps has an outcome determined by randomness.

I don't think anyone could legitimately argue Mosconi Cup results are random (yes luck is a factor in an individual rack, which can influence a single match, but overall it has been clear for a while that Europe has an edge for whatever reason).

However your point about it not necessarily determining who is the 'best' player is fair, we have a proper ranking list now and Gorst is miles ahead in that!

 

[jbart65]

Playing 9b in a race-to-five format is like playing craps. This event is showbiz made for entertainment value. It doesn't determine a champion of anything. Fun to watch show but don't try to read more into it in terms of what player(s) are actually better than another. Some players love team events, others would rather go to the dentist.

All due respect, Garczar, but hard disagree.

The Mosconi Cup is won. There is money, prestige and reputation involved. Players want to win it, badly. It is the most talked about pool event in the world. By players and, as you can see here, fans. Including you.

It's alternate break. Every player gets a chance, but every break and shot is magnified. By and large, the cream rises to the top. They make fewer mistakes and more big shots under the most duress. Tells me a lot about a player.

I, for one, will never think of SVB as the best in the world. Mosconi is a big reason why. He's up there, but he played in a different era. His Mosconi performances will never be left out of the equation.

Give me two great players with near identical records, but one has much better Mosconi record than the other. It would tell me all I need to know about who can play under the most intense pressure possible and not just quiet ranking tournaments.

 

[skogstokig]

it's 9-ball in a hyper concentrated format, with abnormal pressure added. it's great fun, but garczar is right on it not determining anything on the pecking order.

 

[Badpenguin]

I think of the Mosconi as the playoffs. Players performed throughout the year to earn points at ranking events not to be just “No. 1” or No. 2, but to earn a guaranteed spot on the Mosconi.

Yeah, you might want to ask Joshua Filler about that guaranteed spot.

This is an exhibition. If I am not mistaken each player on the loser side gets $20k, the winner side $40k. The behavior of the audience would not be allowed at a "normal" WNT event either, whereas it is encouraged here.

 

[Nick8400]

The 4" pockets just have to go, it isn't American Pool. This is the Mosconi Cup, not the O'Sullivan Cup, the 4" pockets are an abomination. This would be a much better exhibition match on 4.25" or 4.5" pockets, like pool is supposed to be played.

Tyler hasn't played that great, he just hasn't uncharacteristically missed as much as our other players. Gorst is fiddling with his equipment too much and is too robotic for this combination of pressure and time clock. Sky is made for this but can't pull it off on his own. SVB should gracefully bow out of MC invitations, he isn't a team player and probably does more harm to team morale than good. That being said, at least it hasn't been a complete blowout this year, we got closer. There were times I entertained the idea that we may keep it competitive.

On the other hand, it has been nice seeing Alcaide do so well with his family there, and to see the support that Micky Krause is getting. I find myself appreciating some of the Europeans more, they just stick to their fundamentals and do what is needed. Expect for Jayson, he is going a little overboard. But I guess that is his shtick.

You must be watching a different Tyler than I am.

 

[vjmehra]

Yeah, you might want to ask Joshua Filler about that guaranteed spot.

This is an exhibition. If I am not mistaken each play on the loser side gets $20k, the winner side $40k. The behavior of the audience would not be allowed at a "normal" WNT event either, whereas it is encouraged here.

What is your definition of an exhibition?

I would counter that the Mosconi Cup is an end of season event, where only the best qualify, I think someone else equated it to the playoffs, or perhaps closer to home, the World Pool Masters (i.e. only the best get picked, plus some wildcards and everyone gets paid).

Some people don't like it and thats absolutely their prerogative, however:

It is the only event that non-pool fans watch and talk about
It is the most high profile event on the circuit
The players want to be there (at least the Europeans do, perhaps the Americans think differently, but I doubt it, I believe they want to win just as badly)
Only the best performers qualify
The pressure clearly gets to the players, otherwise they wouldn't miss so many shots that they would normally make (and reading into that, if they feel pressure it must matter to them, hence they obviously feel it is a big event)

 

[Taxi]

Take away (1) Sky's bad position play from the 6 to the 7 in the hill-hill game in Sunday's doubles match, and (2) Kaci's golden break and Thorpe's scratch on the break in their singles match yesterday, and we'd likely be looking at 7-7 rather than 9-5.

Yes, overall the Europeans have a better and deeper roster, even without Filler. Their Fargo ratings and major tournament wins reflect this. And yes, SVB and Gorst haven't played up to their normal talent level. But this hasn't been the one sided event that the 9-5 score would imply.

 

[Jimmorrison]

When you are a 65%-35% dog, how often will you win? One thing I’ve noticed. The Europe team seems a little more savvy about passing on tough shots and conceiving effective safeties. Shaw was trying to convince FSR to cut that two ball, he wouldn’t go for it. Played a great safety instead. Any kind of a back cut bank seems to not want to go on this table. Very few have been tried, I don’t remember seeing one go.

 

[garczar]

All due respect, Garczar, but hard disagree.

The Mosconi Cup is won. There is money, prestige and reputation involved. Players want to win it, badly. It is the most talked about pool event in the world. By players and, as you can see here, fans. Including you.

It's alternate break. Every player gets a chance, but every break and shot is magnified. By and large, the cream rises to the top. They make fewer mistakes and more big shots under the most duress. Tells me a lot about a player.

I, for one, will never think of SVB as the best in the world. Mosconi is a big reason why. He's up there, but he played in a different era. His Mosconi performances will never be left out of the equation.

Give me two great players with near identical records, but one has much better Mosconi record than the other. It would tell me all I need to know about who can play under the most intense pressure possible and not just quiet ranking tournaments.

You can't be serious. 9b at its core has a high luck factor and in ultra-short races its even higher. Proves nothing. Its a once a year exhibition. Nothing more. SVB's(or any other players) standing in the pool world doesn't rely on MC outings. One team event per year doesn't carry much weight over time. You know there's a REALLY good possibility that even quiet WillieM. himself would not have been a great 'cupper. Would that lessen his dominance of the game? Please get real here.

 

[Badpenguin]

What is your definition of an exhibition?

A contest that is staged primarily for entertainment value and does not result in any kind of internationally recognized ranking or record.

I would counter that the Mosconi Cup is an end of season event, where only the best qualify,

Why isn't Joshua Filler there? Albin Ouschan? Oscar Dominguez?

Some people don't like it and thats absolutely their prerogative, however:

It is the only event that non-pool fans watch and talk about
It is the most high profile event on the circuit
The players want to be there (at least the Europeans do, perhaps the Americans think differently, but I doubt it, I believe they want to win just as badly)

Nothing to disagree with here. It is my favorite event.

Only the best performers qualify

Again, why isn't Joshua Filler there? Albin Ouschan? Oscar Dominguez?

The pressure clearly gets to the players, otherwise they wouldn't miss so many shots that they would normally make (and reading into that, if they feel pressure it must matter to them, hence they obviously feel it is a big event)

Nor would they be missing as much, and having to play safeties as much, if the pocket sizes were not such a joke. This is extremely short race 9 ball, I want to see some exhibition shots, not a bunch of tinking around with safeties. Slug it out! This isn't 10 ball, it is 9 ball. And it is pool, not snooker, the tight pockets are a crock.