Archer vs. Sigel 1993 Accu Stats
- Thread starter westcoast
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Perhaps Mike shot straighter than his peers, but Nick Varner told me that Lassiter, in his prime, was the straightest shooter he had ever seen.
I think you're on to something but not sure if you've nailed it perfectly. The older game did have a certainly fluidity or rhythm to it that today's game is lacking. I'm not exactly sure why this is, but even with a 30 second shot clock today's game seems "choppier". Yesterday's players just seemed to play their game, while today's seem to approach every ball as if its a hill-hill runout. Maybe that's because there's more great players and nobody really gets to freewheel through many easy matches anymore.
As much as I respect Ralph Souquet's game, I do think he created a more methodical approach to the game that many players have since emulated. Kind of think it started with him. Many now think they can leave no stone unturned before they can even approach the shot.
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'flow' is exactly what today's game lacks. Yeah they play good but the style, especially with pocket 'snookerization', is getting less-n-less fun to watch.
Mike was the best I ever saw once he got to the finals. He won eleven final matches (tournaments) in a row. Not eleven tournaments in a row, but eleven times when he reached the finals he won before finally losing one (to Efren I think). I particularly liked his draw shot from the two ball to the four with the score 8-8. Another shot that showed the greatness of Archer (the 1990's Player of the Decade) was his position shot from the three ball to the four at 8-9.
They all had jump cues by then but rarely used them as long as they could find another way to hit the ball. Only when they were totally trapped or locked in did they pull out the jump cue. Gradually over time as they improved the jump cues and their skills did players start using them on a regular basis.
Darn right. The 4" pockets are draining 9ball of its identity.
True that. I saw Luther play quite a bit and he never seemed to miss. He once famously said that he could watch a player and if he missed more than once in an hour he knew he could beat him. It helped that Luther played better (and closer) position than anyone else. He would shrug his shoulders and make a face if he got a couple of inches out of line. He wanted (and expected) perfection on every shot. He was the undisputed king of 9-Ball for a long, long time. Harold Worst was the first and only guy I ever saw challenge him. They never played for money as far as I know. In tournaments yes (JC and Stardust).
I clocked Luther at JC one year and in every Straight Pool match (they went to 125) he ran a 90 or better, like six or seven matches in a row. Yes he won the Straight Pool that year. Mosconi refused to ever play a long challenge match against Luther. If he did I never heard about it. Meanwhile Willie played them with Cranfield, Crane, Caras and Rudolf to win several of his "world titles."
I am sure, sjm, you have elaborated on this before. I wonder if you can just restate the top two or three things that you dislike about 4-inch pockets. You seem to really like most of what MR is doing, but this one really bugs you, Jay and others.
Personally, I don't have a problem with tighter pockets. I think loose 4-inch or tight 4.25-inch pockets are fine. And most of the top players I've heard comment seem to agree. (I do have a problem with tight 4-inch or sub-4-inch pockets. Neils Feijin explained why last year).
To my mind, the game needed to get harder. There's just too many good players these days and there's got to be a way to separate them.
Has it led to less risking taking? I suppose so. But I still see players taking lots of risks. Anytime they jump it's a risk imo because of where the cue ball could end up!
One more thought...
While I don't particularly like watching today's players play 14.1, it is tough to play that game at the highest levels without this "flow" that we're talking about. The players of the 90's all had that game in their background. I guess minus a few like Buddy. Still the flow of 14.1 was still lingering and probably positively influenced the 9 ball game.
We are now past the point where 14.1 has an influence on the game.
While I don't particularly like watching today's players play 14.1, it is tough to play that game at the highest levels without this "flow" that we're talking about. The players of the 90's all had that game in their background. I guess minus a few like Buddy. Still the flow of 14.1 was still lingering and probably positively influenced the 9 ball game.
We are now past the point where 14.1 has an influence on the game.
I feel like I am in a time warp, reading all the grass was greener comments. Maybe the grass was greener back then, but I very much enjoy the "modern" era of pool.
Granted, it's harder for me to compare eras since I am a lot newer to pro pool than the posters on this thread. I only started watching in late 2021.
I watch a ton of pool now, though. A ton. As examples, I watched 90% of the Mosconi and 100% of the Reyes. Also huge dollops of every major in the past two years. Pro pool is the only sport I watch regularly now.
And yes, I have watched a ton of vids to see the oldtime greats: Efren, Strickland, Sigel, Varner, Hall, etc.
I watched this Sigel-Varner vid last year. What all the old videos tell me is that the past greats could play in this age with modern equipment. No doubt. And I love Sigel - what a character. Talking and chewing gum and moving around the table nonchalantly. Very different from players today.
I do think 9-ball was a bit too easy back then, however. The break was too easy. The pockets were too big. The safety play in my view was less chess-like. There was less drama in some ways.
*I like the break format now - it makes the game more competitive. It's not as decisive and doesn't allow a player to dominate like SVB. Lots of consecutive break-and-runs is boring to me and probably would be to a more general pool audience that MR is aiming for.
*I like that critical errors seem to get punished more readily these days. There's too many good players to lose focus even briefly.
That's why players can take so long to shoot, but the shot clock remedies the problem as the tournament progresses. I don't watch many matches before the shot-clock rounds, in fact.
*I like that there is more safety play. The chess match and cat-and-mouse game the best players deploy now is hitting new peaks.
That said, I do think the tighter pockets are leading to a bit too much safety play. So I'd like to see MR settle on slightly looser pockets. We do want to see players taking more risks.
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Is pro pool more choppy today? Less fluid? Perhaps, but I see plenty of players who, if they are not super fluid, certainly are not choppy. Filler, Gorst, SVB, FSR, Ouschan, Chua, Alcaide and so forth.
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The game had to change, but not all change is better. It will take time to see how it all shakes out.
Granted, it's harder for me to compare eras since I am a lot newer to pro pool than the posters on this thread. I only started watching in late 2021.
I watch a ton of pool now, though. A ton. As examples, I watched 90% of the Mosconi and 100% of the Reyes. Also huge dollops of every major in the past two years. Pro pool is the only sport I watch regularly now.
And yes, I have watched a ton of vids to see the oldtime greats: Efren, Strickland, Sigel, Varner, Hall, etc.
I watched this Sigel-Varner vid last year. What all the old videos tell me is that the past greats could play in this age with modern equipment. No doubt. And I love Sigel - what a character. Talking and chewing gum and moving around the table nonchalantly. Very different from players today.
I do think 9-ball was a bit too easy back then, however. The break was too easy. The pockets were too big. The safety play in my view was less chess-like. There was less drama in some ways.
*I like the break format now - it makes the game more competitive. It's not as decisive and doesn't allow a player to dominate like SVB. Lots of consecutive break-and-runs is boring to me and probably would be to a more general pool audience that MR is aiming for.
*I like that critical errors seem to get punished more readily these days. There's too many good players to lose focus even briefly.
That's why players can take so long to shoot, but the shot clock remedies the problem as the tournament progresses. I don't watch many matches before the shot-clock rounds, in fact.
*I like that there is more safety play. The chess match and cat-and-mouse game the best players deploy now is hitting new peaks.
That said, I do think the tighter pockets are leading to a bit too much safety play. So I'd like to see MR settle on slightly looser pockets. We do want to see players taking more risks.
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Is pro pool more choppy today? Less fluid? Perhaps, but I see plenty of players who, if they are not super fluid, certainly are not choppy. Filler, Gorst, SVB, FSR, Ouschan, Chua, Alcaide and so forth.
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The game had to change, but not all change is better. It will take time to see how it all shakes out.
There's certainly some nostalgia at play, but I think most of us understand 9 Ball had to change so you're sort of arguing against a straw man. Many of us are just lamenting that the game may be getting more popular while losing something along the way. What exactly it's losing -- I'm not entirely sure.
It's sort of like college football as it marches into its inaugural playoff. The game has never been more popular, but yet for a fan like me -- it's losing its innocence. That's even if the previous innocence required cognitive dissonance on my part.
Back to pool -- today's WNT game has completely removed the most athletic shot -- the break -- from the game. There's something primal about seeing a man obliterate a rack like SVB can, or watching less athletic guys from the past give it their best shot. Sigel had an amazingly consistent and perfectly powerful break. But there's a huge BUT -- I'm not arguing Matchroom didn't have to do something to fix the break because they clearly did. Was turning it into a delicate cut break/positional test the right way to go? So far it appears it was. But I've said from the beginning that they will need to stay out ahead of the players on the break because they will all figure it out sooner or later. As of now, it's already starting to look like the players that figure out the break win.
There are others things that I already spelled out that I don't like. Ultimately, I think I'm just a middle-aged amateur pool player and the pool that I and most of the players on here routinely play -- more closely resembles the pool of yesterday than what we now watch. I think that's the big divide.
Another bad analogy -- Guys that play pickup basketball have never watched the NBA and sort of thought they did the same things as those guys. There was always a cataclysmic divide between us. With pool we use to watch the same game that we played. 90's Nine Ball was distinctly replicated in every pool room in the country. Most of us just don't play WNT Nine Ball. So it's more difficult to intuitively relate to it. So the divide between the amateurs and the pros is finally growing. That's great news for those trying to make a living at the game, but many of us will always long for the days of YMCA pickup pool.
on azb? i don't believe it
Sorry if it seemed like I was arguing against a strawman. That was not my intention. I am just excited about pro pool in this day and age.
Cognitive dissonance for sure! I think college sports - basketball even more than football - lost its innocence decades ago after all the big money was thrown at it.
Conference shifting in NCAA basketball drove me away a decade ago. And the politics surrounding bowl selection before the players ... wowsa. At least the playoffs recognize what has been true a long time. Bigtime college sports aren't about education and amateurism at all!
Maybe so, but they are not getting consistently easy looks at the next lowest ball even when they pocket the one. Nor are they getting lots of balls in on each break. So more work to do.
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I get the nostalgia, and I recognize MR doesn't do everything right. Perhaps I am just seeing the game with a fresh pair of eyes, and that jaundices me in one direction just like oldtimers are jaundiced in another.
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L.S. Dennis
Well-known member
You nailed it, couldn't agree more!
the big reason players are so much seemed better these days at 9 ball is the balls are polished and the special racks make for open racks after the break. rarely are the balls tied up so a player cant get out.
the old time players also ran out almost every time the balls were wide open. as you can see from the above match.
and now they make a ball on the break more often as well.
the old time players also ran out almost every time the balls were wide open. as you can see from the above match.
and now they make a ball on the break more often as well.
Is there less "flow" to the modern game. Some players are definitely choppy or not exactly flow-ful. I still think plenty of top players have flow to their game.
Character is somewhat lacking, I agree. I do think lots of pool players have flair or character - Shaw, Woodward, Kaci, Oi and Chua come to mind - and they would like to show it.
I think Matchroom wants players to show more character. We are seeing signs of it, notably at the Hanoi Open.
It won't be an easy task to get players to loosen up, though, given the recent history of the game and the formats in which they play. The early rounds of big opens especially are not conducive to it.
Lots of the younger players raised in organized settings will also need to "live" for quite some time before they develop their own characters and start to show them off.
It's only in the past two years, for instance, that Kaci's devilish character has begun to reveal itself. Aloof at times, yes, but a character nonetheless. Filler is developing character too, and the spat with WNT will give him a harder edge.
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i would also like to see at least a one time each rack allowed a pushout. this way it makes for some more strategy into the game. and also keeps the game from being the best kicker and jumper being the favorite.
along with who can manipulate the break to make a dead ball.
along with who can manipulate the break to make a dead ball.