Archer vs. Sigel 1993 Accu Stats

jay helfert said:
I first went to Johnston City in 1963 and then I was hooked forever. It was three weeks long back then. I went with some pool buddies from Dayton (maybe a 500 mile drive away) and we stayed for five days, then came back home. I convinced one of them (Pat Colley) to go back with me and we returned for five more days a week later. I couldn't get enough of that hustler lifestyle, sick kid that I was.

Everybody copied Ernie! ;)
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Th views I saw lead me to believe it was not a Gina.

Could have been but the video was too grainy to be sure.

Lou Figueroa
 
L.S. Dennis said:
In Babe's book, he claims Greenleaf as his hero. In fact he said that whenever Greenleaf would be giving an exhibition if were humanly possible he would always go to see him. In the book Babe points our how Greenleaf was a master of limited cue ball movement when playing position.

No doubt that the young Mosconi learned a lot from Greenleaf as Willie's cue ball control was also second to none! Fun revisiting all the stuff for us old geezers! Love your posts,
Dennis
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Mosconi said that he modeled his play after Greenleaf.

But where Greeenleaf would leave 2' between CB and OB, Wille said he tried to cut that to 1'. It's what made his play look so insanely easy. Not only did he never have a tough shot, he never left himself a long shot either.

Lou Figueroa
 
jay helfert said:
This is probably true and Willie's record in Challenge matches (usually 1,500 points) seems to verify this. The lore around the pool world when I came up in the 1960's was that Ralph Greenleaf was the best of all time and Willie was second. And that from the mouths of men who played both of them.
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I also met numerous guys who played both Wille and Greenleaf when I was young. The consensus seemed to be that Greenleaf was the best ever at straight pool on the 5 x 10 and Willie was the best ever on the 4 1/2 x 9. In a chat I had with him, Irving Crane noted how much tougher Willie was to beat on the 4 1/2 x 9 than on the 5 x 10.

Of course, it's mostly hearsay.
 
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sjm said:
I also met numerous guys who played both Wille and Greenleaf when I was young. The consensus seemed to be that Greenleaf was the best ever at straight pool on the 5 x 10 and Willie was the best ever on the 4 1/2 x 9. In a chat I had with him, Irving Crane noted how much tougher Willie was to beat on the 4 1/2 x 9 than on the 5 x 10.

Of course, it's mostly hearsay.
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Just made a quick check, in 1933 Brunswick signed a young Willie Mosconi ( I think he was 20 at the time) to a contract. His first assignment was to make a 112 day whirlwind tour with Ralph Greenleaf around the United States. By Willie's own admission he watched Greenleaf's play like a hawk and learned much from him on that exhibition tour. The final score was 57 wins for Greenleaf and 50 for Mosconi. The important thing to note here is that most of Mosconi's wins came toward the end of the tour which leads one to believe that if the tour had continued Mosconi most likely would have overtaken Greanleaf as Mosconi was getting constantly better all the time. Who was the better player of the two, who knows and nobody will ever know for sure.
 
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sjm said:
I also met numerous guys who played both Wille and Greenleaf when I was young. The consensus seemed to be that Greenleaf was the best ever at straight pool on the 5 x 10 and Willie was the best ever on the 4 1/2 x 9. In a chat I had with him, Irving Crane noted how much tougher Willie was to beat on the 4 1/2 x 9 than on the 5 x 10.

Of course, it's mostly hearsay.
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Thanks for reminding me. It's true! The old time players did not like the move down to 9' tables. They looked at them much like todays players do bar tables.
 
sjm said:
Me neither. At straight pool, it is possible that Mizerak did, but I'm not so sure. At nine ball, I'm pretty sure that nobody had a winning record against Sigel.
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Mizerak definitely had a winning 14.1 record against Mike, who was Steve's toughest opponent. Steve was always #1 and Mike #2.
 
L.S. Dennis said:
In Babe's book, he claims Greenleaf as his hero. In fact he said that whenever Greenleaf would be giving an exhibition if were humanly possible he would always go to see him. In the book Babe points our how Greenleaf was a master of limited cue ball movement when playing position.

No doubt that the young Mosconi learned a lot from Greenleaf as Willie's cue ball control was also second to none! Fun revisiting all the stuff for us old geezers! Love your posts,
Dennis
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Thanks Dennis. I hung on every word that the old time guys said about who the greatest players were and why. They all revered Rags Fitzpatrick who died in 1960 at the age of 40 (Greenleaf died in 1950 at age 50). To a man they said Rags was the best of all of them! And my generation revered Harold Worst more than anyone else. He was only 37 when we lost him. Tournament champions and hustlers alike considered Worst the best player of them all! I sure did. Still no one today quite like him, as a man and a player. Shane is the closest.
 
jay helfert said:
Thanks Dennis. I hung on every word that the old time guys said about who the greatest players were and why. They all revered Rags Fitzpatrick who died in 1960 at the age of 40 (Greenleaf died in 1950 at age 50). To a man they said Rags was the best of all of them! And my generation revered Harold Worst more than anyone else. He was only 37 when we lost him. Tournament champions and hustlers alike considered Worst the best player of them all! I sure did. Still no one today quite like him, as a man and a player. Shane is the closest.
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Yes, I've heard Eddie Taylor call Rags the greatest pool player he had ever seen. I was told that Rags died shortly before the very first Johnston City event. Really a shame.
 
maha said:
i know billy s. made a cue or more for sigel. dont know what he was playing with as most pros got free playing cues from the top makers back then when ever they wanted one.
and most played with whatever they had left, ones they had not broken when mad.
.
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I don't know if Ernie gave cues to top players in the 90s.

It's possible...........
 
jay helfert said:
I first went to Johnston City in 1963 and then I was hooked forever. It was three weeks long back then. I went with some pool buddies from Dayton (maybe a 500 mile drive away) and we stayed for five days, then came back home. I convinced one of them (Pat Colley) to go back with me and we returned for five more days a week later. I couldn't get enough of that hustler lifestyle, sick kid that I was.

Everybody copied Ernie! ;)
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They copied some things but Ernie's cues in the 90s had a very distinct look to them.

I had one of the 30th anniversary cues.

I saw Sigel playing with a Ginacue.

I think that's what he is playing with in the video.

I know he didn't play with a Ginacue for long.......
 
L.S. Dennis said:
In Babe's book, he claims Greenleaf as his hero. In fact he said that whenever Greenleaf would be giving an exhibition if were humanly possible he would always go to see him. In the book Babe points our how Greenleaf was a master of limited cue ball movement when playing position.

No doubt that the young Mosconi learned a lot from Greenleaf as Willie's cue ball control was also second to none! Fun revisiting all the stuff for us old geezers! Love your posts,
Dennis
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Greenleaf was a notorious drunk.
 
overlord said:
Are you operating from memory?

Because I just went back and froze the frame a few times. The video is grainy but it sure looks like one of Ernie's cues.

I saw Sigel playing in a pool tournament in Burbank Cali in the early 90s and he was playing with a Ginacue.
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ill ask Mike.
 
overlord said:
They copied some things but Ernie's cues in the 90s had a very distinct look to them.

I had one of the 30th anniversary cues.

I saw Sigel playing with a Ginacue.

I think that's what he is playing with in the video.

I know he didn't play with a Ginacue for long.......
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He made thirty 30th Anniversary cues and only two had ivory joints. He gave one of them to me. Ernie and I played Bank Pool many times, for lunch or dinner. Like me that was his favorite game.
 
sjm said:
Yes, I've heard Eddie Taylor call Rags the greatest pool player he had ever seen. I was told that Rags died shortly before the very first Johnston City event. Really a shame.
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I don't make this stuff up! ;)

Rags died in 1960. The first Johnston City was in 1961 and was only a One Pocket tournament with sixteen players. "Connecticut" Johnny Vevis won it. I think he beat Marshall "Squirrel" Carpenter in the finals and Fats was third. Not 100% on that, but I know Johnny won.
 
overlord said:
I don't know if Ernie gave cues to top players in the 90s.

It's possible...........
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He gave a couple to Ronnie at different times but was pained when he found out Ronnie sold them. He may have given one to Richie Florence too, who kept his. Ernie only gave a cue to someone he really liked and admired.
 
Cornerman said:
Already posted the answer. Mike said he played with a Gina for just a couple of months as he couldn’t get used to it.
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Now that you mention it. Yes I recall him telling me that. “Ernie builds gorgeous cues” is Mike’s favorite thing to say about Ernie’s cues. He’s right about that! They sure are
 
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