Young Pro 9 Ball Players

[jay helfert]

This is one where we will have to disagree Stu. Efren would have been an even more successful 9-Ball player playing "rollout" pool. It's a closer cousin to the game of Rotation that he grew up on. The more "complete skills" are mainly due to the use of jump cues, with the one foul rule being secondary to that. True, today's best players have mastered this game, but they would need time to learn the previous 9-Ball way of playing.

There was a crossover for a while (several years) where more tournaments began playing "one foul, bih," and the after hours money games were still "pushout" 9-Ball.

There was a lot more variance to 9-Ball when all balls came back up on the spot and the incoming player had the option. And you had this same option any time your opponent fouled. The best players knew how to take advantage of this. Plus you were often shooting from behind the line so you had to execute from distance. As one who grew up playing "Two Fouls by the same player was BIH" I can tell you that I felt I had an advantage over the young shotmakers of my era. I could out move them in a lot of racks. My banking skills won the day quite often. Stu, you often talk about decision making skills and I will tell you they were paramount playing Pushout pool. JMHO as always.

For those who may not be already aware, the reason for the new rules was to speed up the game of 9-Ball and make the matches shorter timewise. All created for TV, thanks first to the McDermott Tour threesome and adopted by Richie Florence for televised matches.

I will add only one other thing that I think is noteworthy. About 30+ years ago we tried having a couple of tournaments that were Ten Ball. ALL the players struggled with this game, with the exception of Buddy Hall, Jimmy Reid and one of two others who frequented the Ten Ball ring games. The matches became so slow that we gave up this idea for twenty more years! Today's players handle Ten Ball like no big deal. Maybe the equipment helps but they appear to me to simply be better players in so far as cue ball control, position play and yes shot making!

 

[Flakeandrun]

Fifty guys like that in Texas alone, probably 750-800 speed. They live and play locally, have jobs/families and hustle games with local champs. I've seen them in action - killers! I followed my friend Manny Chau around down there nearly ten years ago (when he was one of the best players in all of Texas) and he pointed out guys that were just as strong as him. A couple of them he smiled at me and said he didn't want to play them. That got my attention!

Right, I was using one person as an example, but you can imagine how many players must fit into this bracket in a pool as big as Shanghai (let alone China as a whole). One thing I love to see is when big tournaments roll through town, and looking at who matches up with who, or what lessons are learnt (and how quickly). It is also interesting to watch how some 'pros' work out their match-ups, and those who will take anything going (naturally, I think this is mostly due to money in the bank, affording time, accommodation, expenses etc)
If everyone had the money, connections and time (and those things are 'privileges' señor Laus ) to facilitate entry into events. The pool of the top players would look drastically different.

 

[skogstokig]

Right, I was using one person as an example, but you can imagine how many players must fit into this bracket in a pool as big as Shanghai (let alone China as a whole). One thing I love to see is when big tournaments roll through town, and looking at who matches up with who, or what lessons are learnt (and how quickly). It is also interesting to watch how some 'pros' work out their match-ups, and those who will take anything going (naturally, I think this is mostly due to money in the bank, affording time, accommodation, expenses etc)
If everyone had the money, connections and time (and those things are 'privileges' señor Laus ) to facilitate entry into events. The pool of the top players would look drastically different.

there are always the chinese loan shark rings i guess. forgot what they're called. they came up in the case of a snooker pro busted for dumping

 

[Flakeandrun]

there are always the chinese loan shark rings i guess. forgot what they're called. they came up in the case of a snooker pro busted for dumping

More than one of them has been busted. Xintong is close to being 'rehabilitated' having won three Q-tour stops. Personally, he should never play on the biggest stage again... but hey, MR like a bit of added value/story line/controversy... Could go down a very long rabbit hole here hahaha

I think there's quite a bit of money games that go on, though perhaps slightly (definitely a lot) more discrete than the YT broadcast affairs we see from America, given the nature of 'gambling' on a societal level. It's part of the culture to gamble, yet technically illegal by law.

 

[Mensabum]

Is this day & age seeing the new players that improve, I'm starting to see/feel this. R/You?
On simple open table kick shots when rolling whitey 6-10 feet, the younger generation seem to ''feel the shot'' at hand.
The youngsters more often than not, contact the correct side of the object ball.
My youth/Varner years we player Roll out 9 ball, great game, best player/smartest, most always won, if you did your work properly.
My generation grew up with tactical board play, taking the free shot and working the rack/legally.
Kicking/not much.

We'd use our regular cues to jump with as well.

 

[skogstokig]

More than one of them has been busted. Xintong is close to being 'rehabilitated' having won three Q-tour stops. Personally, he should never play on the biggest stage again... but hey, MR like a bit of added value/story line/controversy... Could go down a very long rabbit hole here hahaha

I think there's quite a bit of money games that go on, though perhaps slightly (definitely a lot) more discrete than the YT broadcast affairs we see from America, given the nature of 'gambling' on a societal level. It's part of the culture to gamble, yet technically illegal by law.

xintong's crime was not snitching. he wasn't involved in fixing a match. imo the punishment fit the crime.

i was thinking of another dude that came from abject poverty, got financed by these chinese money rings, and long story short they called in a favor.

back to the topic of unknown monsters, of course on a worldwide level they exist. in europe or USA, not so much anymore. and not near 800 speed. some like to cling onto lore and mythology, but in reality if you're an 800 speed player you're not unknown

 

[Island Drive]

Also, two-way shots are an integral part of the game when opponent cannot pushout in mid-rack. Many of the two-ways shots that Reyes brought to pool would have had no application in the rollout days.

I really tire of the argument that the better player was more likely to win at rollout than in today's game, which requires a more complete set of skills, because that argument equates "better player" with "straighter shooter."

The better player doesn't mean the straighter shooter - it means the player with the more complete skill set and the one having a more refined sense of the tradeoffs between offense and defense in today's version of the game, which often allows you to play both simultaneously.

Another consideration with rotation pool/Roll Out.
Allow each player one roll out per rack.
Then............
We'd see the players way more aggressive an entertaining game because of Great breakouts.
But, if/when they get hooked they have one roll out coming.

 

[jay helfert]

xintong's crime was not snitching. he wasn't involved in fixing a match. imo the punishment fit the crime.

i was thinking of another dude that came from abject poverty, got financed by these chinese money rings, and long story short they called in a favor.

back to the topic of unknown monsters, of course on a worldwide level they exist. in europe or USA, not so much anymore. and not near 800 speed. some like to cling onto lore and mythology, but in reality if you're an 800 speed player you're not unknown

Oh you're known all right! Probably very well known in your local area. The only difference is you're not chasing your pool fortune all over the planet, preferring to stay close to home with family and security. Not everyone wants to be a "famous" pool player. They'd rather have a Life!

 

[sjm]

Another consideration with rotation pool/Roll Out.
Allow each player one roll out per rack.
Then............
We'd see the players way more aggressive an entertaining game because of Great breakouts.
But, if/when they get hooked they have one roll out coming.

I like the sound of that, Bill.

 

[sjm]

This is one where we will have to disagree Stu. Efren would have been an even more successful 9-Ball player playing "rollout" pool. It's a closer cousin to the game of Rotation that he grew up on. The more "complete skills" are mainly due to the use of jump cues, with the one foul rule being secondary to that. True, today's best players have mastered this game, but they would need time to learn the previous 9-Ball way of playing.

There was a crossover for a while (several years) where more tournaments began playing "one foul, bih," and the after hours money games were still "pushout" 9-Ball.

There was a lot more variance to 9-Ball when all balls came back up on the spot and the incoming player had the option. And you had this same option any time your opponent fouled. The best players knew how to take advantage of this. Plus you were often shooting from behind the line so you had to execute from distance. As one who grew up playing "Two Fouls by the same player was BIH" I can tell you that I felt I had an advantage over the young shotmakers of my era. I could out move them in a lot of racks. My banking skills won the day quite often. Stu, you often talk about decision making skills and I will tell you they were paramount playing Pushout pool. JMHO as always.

For those who may not be already aware, the reason for the new rules was to speed up the game of 9-Ball and make the matches shorter timewise. All created for TV, thanks first to the McDermott Tour threesome and adopted by Richie Florence for televised matches.

Not sure you have disagreed with me, here.

Obviously, Reyes would have been a monster in any rotation game with any rule set, but that was not the comment I made about him. I offered that many of the most imaginative shots we saw from Efren were the countless two-way shots that had little to no application before Texas Express rules enabled players to frequently play offense and defense together. In addition, kicking became far more frequent and far more important once Texas Express rules were in use and Reyes brought kicking to a place it had never been. To me, other than the tighter pockets that are in vogue today, two-way shots and kicking are, more than jumping, the things that have made the game more skillful.

While I never attended a pro nine ball event before 1984, I did play rollout and I often saw it played by pros at the Golden Q in Queens, NY in the 1970s. I found it dull to watch, and not only because of the pace. It never would have done for TV for the very reason you said --- it was too slow.

I do agree with you that the rollout version of nine ball meant that more difficult shots, banks included, had to be attempted, and that is a positive about that version of nine-ball. In fact, in my occasional AZB tirade against the use of 4" pockets, I note that the decline in the number of bank shots attempted is one of the things that I do not like.

Thanks for your insights.

 

[jay helfert]

Not sure you have disagreed with me, here.

Obviously, Reyes would have been a monster in any rotation game with any rule set, but that was not the comment I made about him. I offered that many of the most imaginative shots we saw from Efren were the countless two-way shots that had little to no application before Texas Express rules enabled players to frequently play offense and defense together. In addition, kicking became far more frequent and far more important once Texas Express rules were in use and Reyes brought kicking to a place it had never been. To me, other than the tighter pockets that are in vogue today, two-way shots and kicking are, more than jumping, the things that have made the game more skillful.

While I never attended a pro nine ball event before 1984, I did play rollout and I often saw it played by pros at the Golden Q in Queens, NY in the 1970s. I found it dull to watch, and not only because of the pace. It never would have done for TV for the very reason you said --- it was too slow.

I do agree with you that the rollout version of nine ball meant that more difficult shots, banks included, had to be attempted, and that is a positive about that version of nine-ball. In fact, in my occasional AZB tirade against the use of 4" pockets, I note that the decline in the number of bank shots attempted is one of the things that I do not like.

Thanks for your insights.

You did it again, caused me to rethink my opinion. I reserve the right to change my mind . Now if we can just get rid of "call shot" in Ten Ball (and the purple five ball) everything will be all right in the pool world once again.

 

[sjm]

You did it again, caused me to rethink my opinion. I reserve the right to change my mind . Now if we can just get rid of "call shot" in Ten Ball (and the purple five ball) everything will be all right in the pool world once again.

Rest assured, Jay, you've caused me to change my opinion on many a subject before.

Yes, "call shot" has to go. Its absurdities reared their ugly head once again at the recently completed Qatar 10ball Open. Unfortunately, the use of "call shot" devalues the game for the fans, who cannot hear what shot is being called anyway and it give the referees certain types of discretion that the pro game can do without.

I've gotten used to the purple five, so it's not a big issue for me and, as a fan, I can transition seamlessly from one ball set to another.

 

[Flakeandrun]

xintong's crime was not snitching. he wasn't involved in fixing a match. imo the punishment fit the crime.

He's a wasteman (I previously wrote idiot, but he's not, he's quite clearly a clever bloke with clever folks around him). He knew what he was doing. He is also of a background wealthy enough that the 'punishment' was no real punishment. He's one of those who buys and resells custom cues at an extortionate value, was still playing, coaching and doing exhibitions. I believe if you are involved in match fixing on any level, you should lose the right to compete on the biggest stage. in any game, sport or whatever.

i was thinking of another dude that came from abject poverty, got financed by these chinese money rings, and long story short they called in a favor.

Not sure, will ask around about it.

back to the topic of unknown monsters, of course on a worldwide level they exist. in Europe or USA, not so much anymore. and not near 800 speed. some like to cling onto lore and mythology, but in reality if you're an 800 speed player you're not unknown

I guess it's relative to the area in which you are 'known' - are you known enough to be paid to travel, pushed into tournaments and given free stuff?

 

[Island Drive]

I like the sound of that, Bill.

ESPECIALLY WITH 4'' POCKETS....