Opinions regarding a former top pro playing in and dominating a Poolroom‘s weekly handicapped tournament?

[The_JV]

Ok, I can't read the whole thing. I tried but there's clearly a cyclic theme to the responses, so I'll save some time and throw my 2cents in as a player that receives groans when I wander into the room when the low key local events happen. I can't say that I'm >50% to win but way stronger than that to at least cash for sure.

Just ban the guy. Plain and simple. The event isn't meant for his spd, and appeasing this one guy vs protecting the revenue from 30-40 regulars is outright stupid. The "player" knows he's robbing and will likely respond with something like, "I'm surprised it took so long".

Attempting to handicap him out of the tournament will snowball into slow play which will cause even more hurt feeling reports from the ~400s who "never get a clean shot".

There's zero upside to having him play, so just stop it before it trashes the event. If there is some value to having him in the room for developing players. Then just allocate a "challenge table" and park him at it. Let those between rounds take a shot at him for like $5. They get their money back if they win. He keeps the $5 if he wins. Something along those lines anyway.

Now to those who believe donating to stronger players is a waste of time. I suggest you pay more attention to how/why you're getting tortured rather than fixating on how unfair it is. I donated a ton in my formative years, and having that performance pressure on your shoulders is something that needs to be experienced and overcome. Definitely not something that be gained jerking it from the rail or on the couch watching videos. If you also don't take the opportunity to morph the beating into a lesson. Then the blame is squarely on your shoulders. All that said, there is a subjective threshold to where the cost vs gain doesn't make sense. However the blanket statement that such an exercise has zero value, is shortsighted at best, Dunning Kruger-isk ignorant more like.

 

[gregcantrall]

I’m just kidding. I’ve known Ray for a long time and was hoping he was the one winning Chris’s tournament.

Starting in 84 at the Caesars Tahoe then the Sands in Reno in 85 on through the late 80s. We tried to make it once a year to the tournament as our vacation. I did get the pleasure of watching Ray at one of those events. I had been studying all of the players and with a row of tables it was often a tough decision as to where to sit in the bleacher seating. I was diligent and always early to get a good spot. My take on Ray was he put the Straight Pool stamp on his 9 ball game. A real treat to watch and very educational. Short precision shape was his game. Shots that the 9 ball players favored shape that took a longer path with a larger target area contrasted with his choice of the shortest path executed with the best precision. I diligently studied his book the 99 Critical Shots and thank and salute Ray.

 

[u12armresl]

Mark Jarvis used to show up at the equivalent of a beginners fun center (place for kids and young adults to play) no alcohol, 8 ft drop pocket tables, Off brand named tables, but first place was a few $$ so he showed up to it. Most of the players had Steve Miz sticks from Sears or Pennys.

 

[u12armresl]

You can also bump the entry fee up for a certain speed to a really high number and change the race like those split bracket tourneys to where he goes to 11 and the others go to 2 or 3 something like that.

 

[gregcantrall]

You can also bump the entry fee up for a certain speed

Well instead of making the top players pay more.....give the lower skill levels a discount. Say maybe Have twenty ten and five dollar levels. But call it a 20 dollar tournament with discount not a 5 dollar tournament with penalties. It also sounds better to say I beat Xplayer in a $20 tournament than I beat him in a $5 tournament. Just sayin

 

[Bob Jewett]

Absolutely agree. Game spots mean nothing when the gap is so wide. Ball spots are the only way to go and make them all wild. That levels things out pretty good.

The problem is that the klutz will still be trying to hit the ball while frozen to three others if the champ isn't running out. I think it's better to put the handicap on the champ, like he shoots one handed or behind his back or left handed or standing on one foot. That way the other players get to play by the real rules.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

The problem is that the klutz will still be trying to hit the ball while frozen to three others if the champ isn't running out. I think it's better to put the handicap on the champ, like he shoots one handed or behind his back or left handed or standing on one foot. That way the other players get to play by the real rules.

Keep a pair of triple thick prescription glasses behind the counter.
Win 2 weeks in a row, you play the next one as Mr. Magoo

 

[maha]

donating to a better player only does him any good. your money is not well spent and that isnt dumb thinking.

you can learn just as much watching him play someone else from your chair as watching him steal from you in your chair.
as opposed to him teaching you things as you are shooting. then it can be rewarding but rarely is that the case.

some people just need to justify being a sucker.

 

[Tin Man]

Just a reminder to question the source of advice.

All of the strong players I've met have been unanimously in support of playing the strongest players you can as often as can if you are serious about improving.

If someone hasn't achieved what you want to achieve it doesn't mean their opinion is wrong, but just be aware. Different roads lead to different destinations.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Just a reminder to question the source of advice.

All of the strong players I've met have been unanimously in support of playing the strongest players you can as often as can if you are serious about improving.

If someone hasn't achieved what you want to achieve it doesn't mean their opinion is wrong, but just be aware. Different roads lead to different destinations.

I see it as the equivalent of your top skilled 9-foot table pool room players stooping to play in a tournament at your local bar vs that room’s recreational regulars bangers.

At some point you’d think you’d have enough self respect and pride in yourself and your clear superiority over those players that you don’t have to prove it to yourself or to them by hijacking their tournament, regardless of whether or not it’s supposed to be fairly handicapped.

 

[The_JV]

Just a reminder to question the source of advice.

All of the strong players I've met have been unanimously in support of playing the strongest players you can as often as can if you are serious about improving.

If someone hasn't achieved what you want to achieve it doesn't mean their opinion is wrong, but just be aware. Different roads lead to different destinations.

This is solid advice in of itself. My thoughts regarding playing stronger to glean knowledge and experience comes from my own personal experience being "the sucker" and coming out on the other side for the better. Nearly all that enjoyed torturing me during those years won't bet with me these days. It's actually become friendly banter when we cross paths.

Of course everyone's experiences will differ to some degree. However literally everyone I know on a personal level that runs my speed or higher. Has gone through the same whipping when cutting their teeth. Youth graving instant gratification, or the older crowd unable to learn new tricks will paint the road of hard knocks as a fool's errand.

Those less skilled will lose to those who are stronger. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see someone on AZB argue that. I would hope nearly all would agree. If some choose to believe there's zero to be gained by suffering loss. Then they might as well place an exponent beside that check mark in the loss column. However, those who have the drive will find something to be gained in every experience. Getting steam rolled after a bad decision is probably one of the best lessons that can be learnt. The trick there is you have to actually make the bad decision AND take ownership of it. You can't do either by watching someone else.

So what do you do...? Expose yourself to likely losses...?..., or cuddle with you participation ribbons...?

 

[Black-Balled]

OK the whole story. It was race to 2 playing 9 ball on 7 foot Diamonds.
I snapped the 9. It was a planned shot. The look he gave as he racked 'em again was uh? Did you know that break or was it luck?....Priceless! The second game that I won came to a touchy situation with the last 3 balls. I wasn't sure of the right solution but my choice worked. It might not have been the best solution but, I made it. Hence the question at the handshake. He didn't ask if the 9 ball break was planned. It didn't matter. But I did get the benefit of his insights. After he won the second set the atmosphere was conducive to more knowledge sharing.....Priceless

Your writings suggest you've been around pool for a few days and then you say things like
-was the 9 on the break planned
-did you know that break or always it luck?

P.S. johns look was not 'uh', it was 'dear lord, it this what must happen to me in order for this guy to win a game?'.

 

[SBC]

I don't see the comparison. Joss is a pro, unhandicapped regional tour, not a tour that designs to bridge the skill gap between participants. Nobody should ever be barred from a pro event on the basis of being over-skilled. Dennis Hatch, Jayson Shaw and Mike Dechaine all minted money on the Joss Tour before moving on to a higher level of competition, and that's as it should be. The regional tours like Mezz and Joss are the breeding ground for elite players.

In handicapped play, it is routine to disqualify those who are overqualified in the name of fair play. That's why the BCA has a masters division in its eight-ball national championships. That's why capped Fargo events have come into vogue. Nobody expects to draw a pro player in such events.

Handicapped events, far more than anything, are what is keeping pool growing in the United States, and, for all the problems that come with them, if the basic integrity of that system is compromised in events that are handicapped, it is bad for our sport.

Exactly....Joss being a pro event anyone can play.

The last few y

The Joss Tour is a handicapped "regional tour". They handicap on the entry fee ($120 vs $70). Also, the year-end points leaders typically have a 720-730 FR. I'm not sure if that tour could fairly be called a "pro tour".

The fact that Dennis dominated those regional stops meant he overcame the basic integrity of the handicap system and used that tour as his personal ATM. I don't see a significant distinction between that example and the OP's question.

Someone else hit the nail right on the head when they mentioned something about the significance of the amount of money being donated to the pro is subjective. While it could be chalked up to entertainment for some, it could be significant to others.

Look at it this way, let's exaggerate a pro tournament's entry fee to one million dollars. How many participants do you think each tournament would have? I'm going to say around 10-15 to start and that number will quickly dwindle if the same few players keep winning.

My point is (IMHO): the larger the entry fee becomes, the more equitable / accurate the handicap process should become. For small money, fun tournaments, the accuracy of the handicap is far less critical.

Joss is a pro tour.

Dennis won most of the events he attended.

With the competition, auction, discounted entry for non pros and for many years the Sunday 2nd chance event for non pros Mike Zuglan has given the amateurs plenty of reason to play. He gets very good fields every stop as he has for decades.

 

[SBC]

Absolutely agree. Game spots mean nothing when the gap is so wide. Ball spots are the only way to go and make them all wild. That levels things out pretty good.

We used to do game and ball spots
Wild 8
Wild 8 and a game
Wild 7 and 8
....and on

Lost to a guy giving up the Wild 7 and 8 and a game. Lost 6 to 2 and he made Wild balls on 4 breaks.
What can you do?

 

[maha]

you can make games and win and have pockets full of money. or can be the sucker and lose all the time believing it will eventually make you a better player.

of course it will just playing under pressure is what makes you a better player.
losing all the time doesn't make you a better player. just makes you a losing player.

ive found those that lose most of the time are also losing in their money endeavors in life as well. and survive based on their job. that's okay for most. not me. so that is my stand. yours may be different.

as long as you are happy i guess you are a winner overall.

 

[maha]

We used to do game and ball spots
Wild 8
Wild 8 and a game
Wild 7 and 8
....and on

Lost to a guy giving up the Wild 7 and 8 and a game. Lost 6 to 2 and he made Wild balls on 4 breaks.
What can you do?

you never give wild balls on the break. they get spotted and he keeps shooting same as you. but his stay down when you make them.

 

[jasonlaus]

This is solid advice in of itself. My thoughts regarding playing stronger to glean knowledge and experience comes from my own personal experience being "the sucker" and coming out on the other side for the better. Nearly all that enjoyed torturing me during those years won't bet with me these days. It's actually become friendly banter when we cross paths.

Of course everyone's experiences will differ to some degree. However literally everyone I know on a personal level that runs my speed or higher. Has gone through the same whipping when cutting their teeth. Youth graving instant gratification, or the older crowd unable to learn new tricks will paint the road of hard knocks as a fool's errand.

Those less skilled will lose to those who are stronger. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see someone on AZB argue that. I would hope nearly all would agree. If some choose to believe there's zero to be gained by suffering loss. Then they might as well place an exponent beside that check mark in the loss column. However, those who have the drive will find something to be gained in every experience. Getting steam rolled after a bad decision is probably one of the best lessons that can be learnt. The trick there is you have to actually make the bad decision AND take ownership of it. You can't do either by watching someone else.

So what do you do...? Expose yourself to likely losses...?..., or cuddle with you participation ribbons...?

You first paragraph is HILARIOUS, the better players conned you into believing the lose $$$ to better players bs and then as soon as you play as good or better than them they won't come near you with a nickel. If they actually believed that bs, they'd be begging to lose $$$ to you so they can learn.

Now you're trying to do the same bs they did and con players out of their money. Unfortunately for you, the world has changed and people aren't gullible enough to "give" you $$$ for nothing.

You got suckered out of $$$ and have no chance of ever getting it back

 

[The_JV]

You first paragraph is HILARIOUS, the better players conned you into believing the lose $$$ to better players bs and then as soon as you play as good or better than them they won't come near you with a nickel. If they actually believed that bs, they'd be begging to lose $$$ to you so they can learn.

Now you're trying to do the same bs they did and con players out of their money. Unfortunately for you, the world has changed and people aren't gullible enough to "give" you $$$ for nothing.

You got suckered out of $$$ and have no chance of ever getting it back

I was never conned into anything. I made the choice in an effort to improve my game. No different then entering Open tournaments I knew I had zero chance of cashing in. Small money well spent imo. To each their own.

I also refuse to accept wagers from notably weaker players. I rather agree to have them simply pay for time, and I pass on what I can.

Did a better player touch you in a bad place...?

 

[Tin Man]

I see it as the equivalent of your top skilled 9-foot table pool room players stooping to play in a tournament at your local bar vs that room’s recreational regulars bangers.

At some point you’d think you’d have enough self respect and pride in yourself and your clear superiority over those players that you don’t have to prove it to yourself or to them by hijacking their tournament, regardless of whether or not it’s supposed to be fairly handicapped.

You're absolutely right. I was addressing the point that players who want to improve should welcome the competition.

So if we are playing the 'should' game then the entire situation should flip on it's head. The weaker players should be begging the top players to join in, and the top players should be reluctant because they are too busy playing bigger regional and national events. There should be a balancing point where the strong local players win some of the bigger local tournaments to fund their way to the national events, and that should be welcomed by the weaker players who are excited to get to compete against theses guys seeing as how they never get to in their weekly events.

But there I go having expectations of other humans again. I'll let the weak players stay weak, the strong players stagnate and complain about getting kicked out, and I'll just worry about myself.

 

[The_JV]

But there I go having expectations of other humans again. I'll let the weak players stay weak, the strong players stagnate and complain about getting kicked out, and I'll just worry about myself.

The grass is greener on this side.