Who You Got? Mike Sigel or Nick Varner
- Thread starter BasementDweller
- Start date
s he
My recollection of Nick's One Pocket game was how careful he was. He wedged balls up table more than once! Could he run out? Damn right he could. Nick just happened to be part of a generation that included Mike Sigel and Steve Mizerak, plus Earl and Buddy. Maybe the fact that Nick was so low key had an effect on my perception. I knew he was a great player but I never felt like he was one of the favorites in the biggest pool tournaments (9-Ball or One Pocket). I may have to watch some more videos and take another look as you suggested.
One thing I will add that I do remember was Nick's professionalism. He never gave up in a match and never hit a lackluster shot. He gave it his best every time he got down on the ball. He also may have been the calmest of all the top pros, chewing his gum and acting like it was just another day in the park.
Thanks for this and jogging my memory. You are correct in that all the top players had to be offensive minded in 9-Ball or they had no chance. What set Nick apart was his excellent safety play and how he could use that to his advantage. He was not tentative, but he did play the odds. If he was forced to shoot he could come with a big shot too, his banking ability right there with the best. Nick had that one big year where he won everything and a couple more years with similar results. That he should be considered among the top all around players of all time is absolutely true.Hey Jay, thank you for the post. You saw this first hand and I have only seen select videos so my views are obviously not as sharp. I appreciate you filling us in.
One thing I wanted to share is I feel that Nick is unfairly pegged as a bit cautious. I think this is because of his nonchalant demeanor, and because he had one famous one pocket 'wedge game'.
Nick did commentary once and said it bothered him that he was known for the wedge. He said he plays really offensively and tries to blitz his opponents and find a way to run 8 and out. He said he played one rack where the balls went up table and someone called it the "Nick Varner Wedge" and it stuck and it always bothered him.
As for 9 ball, Nick really went offensive. When people would push he would always take on the shot if it was remotely reasonable, having unwavering faith in his abilities and wanting to control his destiny. He banked as well as anyone and would often shoot bank shots where most players would duck. I wouldn't call him reckless, but he was definitely very offensive minded. I just think he fooled people into thinking he was cautious because he wasn't flashy about it.
I also think his come from behind skills and mental game were exceptional. The years around 1990 I heard a number of people talking about how many of his matches he was down 3-5 racks going to 11 and they felt like Nick was even money, that he stole more sets from down 10-6 or 10-7 than anyone they knew. He never complained, always tried hard, and never gave up. I felt his mental game and heart were some of his super powers, along with shotmaking, patterns, cue ball, safeties, and game management.
As for Mike, I know he had more tournament wins. I believe he might have had a better tournament rhythm than Nick, or maybe he just believed things were supposed to go his way so deeply. Someway, somehow he won more than his share when he got into the finals. Many players go through streaks of really high confidence where they just play at a peak level, and Mike seemed to maintain that through his entire career. As I said in my earlier posts I think Nick hit that gear for 2-3 years a couple of times, whereas Mike seemed to live there.
So I'm not discrediting Mike's achievements. I just don't like people to get the idea that Nick was tentative. The videos are all online, pull one up and try to find a spot where he ducks where you think he's supposed to shoot, then look at how often he shoots when you would have ducked.
Thanks brother. Glad to hear from you and know you are doing well. Merry Christmas!
My recollection of Nick's One Pocket game was how careful he was. He wedged balls up table more than once! Could he run out? Damn right he could. Nick just happened to be part of a generation that included Mike Sigel and Steve Mizerak, plus Earl and Buddy. Maybe the fact that Nick was so low key had an effect on my perception. I knew he was a great player but I never felt like he was one of the favorites in the biggest pool tournaments (9-Ball or One Pocket). I may have to watch some more videos and take another look as you suggested.
One thing I will add that I do remember was Nick's professionalism. He never gave up in a match and never hit a lackluster shot. He gave it his best every time he got down on the ball. He also may have been the calmest of all the top pros, chewing his gum and acting like it was just another day in the park.
Good stuff here! Thanks. You got it all about right. I also remember hearing about this kid from Pennsylvania names Jimmy Rippy, who was beating everyone. I'm from Dayton and there was a roadman in Ohio named Chuck Morgan that no one could best. When Jimmy beat him in Columbus no one could believe it and they were now proclaiming Rippy the best there was. Interesting thing was they never brought him to Dayton to play George Rood. Jimmy never showed his face in Dayton until years later.
Love your story about Nick and Mike. Sounds exactly like how Mike would think. He liked being one of the dominant players at all games. In the 1990's Archer just took over and for awhile it was all him and Earl with Buddy now third (Sigel had retired). I also agree that Buddy played such a beautiful controlled game that you would think no one could beat him. I was always surprised when he lost a match, and everybody would be talking about it - Buddy lost! But 9-Ball being the game that is is, everybody can and will lose once in a while. Like it or not, in those days Buddy was the King! No one wanted to gamble with him, not Sigel and not Nick either. Not even Johnny when he was on top. He mentored Earl so they never gambled as far as I know.
I also agree with your assertion about Earl. He was the best 9-Ball player I ever saw! At his best he was a full speed above all the rest at 9-Ball. And he still couldn't beat Parica at Ten Ball! Figure that one out. And Earl had a better break than Jose.
Thanks again Collector for your recollections.
True that! No one was ever more graceful moving around the table than the Swan man. He had an elegance to his game, reminding me of Ed Kelly. No wasted movement, just glide into position and take the next shot. Jay did win a few big tournaments, but he didn't really like to travel that much, preferring to stay close to home and enjoy the beach life. What most people didn't know is that he was probably the second best big money 9-Ball player of them all, with only Buddy being rated higher. Often, big money gamblers would fly Swanee in to play a money match and he would take it down. Jay would take his cut and go back home and relax for a couple of months.
I watched Jimmy play Kenny Mc Coy when he was in Columbus in about 1968 ,he lived with the guy who brought him to town, and his family ,he told Kenny he was his nephew lol. They played even for about 4 or 5 hours for 20 and Jimmys backer asked to raise the bet, and Kenny said he had to go home for supper. I also knew who Chuck Morgan was, he traveled some with a couple of card mechanics I knew. He wasn't anywhere near as strong at that. I would say the reason they didn't come to Dayton was because of lack of funds, on the part of the backer, he had about 5 kids and liked the peace pipe a little too much. Great guy to have with you if the posse came after you though, lol. His name was Dwayne. in 1968 George had cataract problems so I'm sure he wasn't playing top speed, he told me that by about the early to mid 50s he couldn't see the edge of the ball any more. He still played pretty good though lol.
I miss him a lot , we had a lot of great times together. Thanks for letting me know I'm not nuts.....yet lol
I know they always do their awards in neat decade divisons (e.g. 80's, 90's, etc), but it's looking like Sigel's best run may have been 77-87 or so. Sort of post Miz, pre Earl.
Lots of good info in the thread and I see the poll does allow you to change your vote if anyone has been swayed.
So, am I correct in assuming that the reason Efren didn't string 9 ball racks together like the rest of the upper echelon of that era is because of his sub-elite break?
Correct. That made him vulnerable to the players that could regularly run two or three racks.
I'm sure others will chime in but I've always thought talk of his "weak break" was always exaggerated. There's zero chance someone with a weak break could have beaten Earl Strickland in their famous extended matchup. Was his break elite? Probably not, but in comparison to Johnny Archer or Strickland few players compared well. Hall and Varner didn't and they did fine. This was also around the time all the jumping and flailing around during the break became popular. You had guys like Bustamante, Howard, Ellin, and Breedlove jumping out of their shoes on the break. I think this created an exaggerated image of how important power was for a 9 ball break.
I hadn't really thought about it until Jay mentioned it regarding Parica, but maybe Efren's biggest problem was just that he played too much pool. For guys like Efren, Parica, or even McCready, staying fresh for a long tournament run probably didn't make much financial sense. Meanwhile, other guys just figured out how to pace themselves and ensure they were sharp for the money rounds.
Another thing that cost Efren some wins over the years was his pride in his kicking ability. Yes, he was the best that ever did it BUT the fact that he never jumped balls is crazy. If a top pro did that today, they would probably never win a tourney. I know Efren usually hit the ball he kicked at and even hit the correct side of the ball. As jumping balls evolved, guys would just hop over blocking balls and run out. Meanwhile Efren was kicking safe at them. That adds up over the long run.
I knew Kenny McCoy as well and he was one of the best in the entire Midwest. George had cataract surgery at some point in time, not sure when. He was still top speed in the mid 60's when I lived there. Watched him beat New York Blackie and Ed Kelly at the Cue and Bridge in Northtown Plaza. Chuck Morgan only came around if there was money to be won and he always seemed to get it. He declined a One Pocket game with Pete Glenn at Wink's poolroom though (it was later to become Forest Park Billiards). Morgan showed up at the Dayton tournaments in the early 70's and only played cash games. Very few of the players knew who he was.
I left Dayton pretty much for good in 1967, but came back in the 70's to play in a couple of Joe Burns tourneys. I wrote a story about it back then which I put in Pool Wars. We must have seen each other at some point in time. I played Cannonball, Dan Louie, Willie Munson and Jersey Red back to back one year. Won two and lost two. I won 250 in prize money and Joe Burns paid me with a Thousand dollar bill, which I kept for over twenty years. The next year I got slaughtered by my friend Jimmy Reid and Larry Lisciotti. After that I only went back one time with Danny Medina on our way from Kentucky to Chicago. I never went back again until my 40th high school reunion in 2002. Dayton was sad by then with all the big factories closed.
Are there any details floating around about the Efren vs. Varner match in the Philippines? Did Varner really go half way around the world, after already knowing how good Efren was, to play him on his home turf, in front of his fans?
Only to walk away with the cash?
That's Hollywood type material there.
Only to walk away with the cash?
That's Hollywood type material there.
Efren's break improved over time and he won some 9-Ball tourneys in the 90's, even beating Archer and Earl in the process. And of course players began to figure out ways to gaff the rack, which became a big problem for us T.D.'s back then. We went back and forth from loser racks to winner racks to changing the racking pattern, trying to find ways to nullify the racking wars taking place. That was a big problem in 9-Ball tourneys for years, until the template came along.
It happened, no fairy tale. I don't think Nick went specifically to play Efren. He was there by invitation and of course he had to play when he was there. He beat some other players and then it was time for him to take on their big gun, Efren. Jose was living in the states back then.
When Shane first went there they came out of the woodwork to play him. He won at first when I was in with him but after another backer came along Shane had a tougher time of it. We had made a big score against Jeff DeLuna (10K) so I was content with that. He did beat Ronnie Alcano, but he lost to Lee Vann I think. I just remember him getting beat but not 100% sure who it was. I wasn't in so I didn't watch the game.
Thanks. In my Hollywood "based on a true story" version, Nick goes there all alone in search of the Filipino pool master, to avenge the humiliating defeat he suffered back home, and to restore his country's good name.
Since I'm in charge of directing this film, I'll throw in a few beautiful Filipina love interests just to balance things out.
I'd like to be invited to the grand opening of your film. LOL.
Fair point about Efren & Earl's famous race to 120. However, IMO, while Efren must get the credit for the win, I think special mention in that race goes to Earl's famous implosion. Earl blowing that big lead was the big story to me more so than Efren being the better 9 baller. That's my take that particular match anyway. As for the super big break...yeah, I think the modern techniques have shown that nuclear blasts are not required of the break. Regarding the lack of a financial incentive to go deep in tournaments in favor of gambling, well that is an indictment of the business of pool in that era. Sad then that tournaments paid so little. Sad now to I guess.
You seem like a good dude BasementDweller. You gonna be at Derby this year? I usually go for a day to spectate and enjoy a brew. I'll offer to buy you one if our paths cross.
God, the racking wars were brutal. Honestly, I can't imagine trying to earn a living and having to fade that nonsense. I don't have to worry about it because pool is not my living, it's only recreation. But damn, racking nonsense takes both fun and $ out of the game I think.
Since you're directing this film, whomever you choose to play our hero Nicky V needs to use a house cue plucked off of the wall to use in said death battle.