GOAT Hunt

Sigel in his prime played kinda like Filler as in near perfect at times. A lot of guys get a tad weak in the finals but Mike came with the shit time after time. Playing 9b Efren was swimming upstream against Mike. Only game where ER would have been fave was in 1p and even at that Mike was no slouch.
 
mjantti said:
So during their prime, who would win? Sigel or Filler? Race to 100. BO5.
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Even though you are asking the impossible, I will take a shot. Here goes:

Assuming we are talking 9ball here, it is Filler. The standard today in 9ball is almost ridiculous. The stroke fundamentals of today's most elite players are mind-blowing. Players break and run on 4" pockets more often than those of Sigel's generation ran out on 4 5/8" pockets.

While I buy into the idea that the greatest 9ball champions like Sigel, Strickland and Varner would have been champions in any era because they would have done whatever was necessary to adapt to the competition, there really is no comparison between the level of play seen in Sigel's day to what we are seeing today.

Prime Filler 100 Prime Sigel 77.
 
Badpenguin said:
Someone mentioned that Joshua Filler is in the conversation of being the best rotation player in history. This got me wondering, could you quantify that? Maybe the most basic metric would be to compare players' number of wins of major tournaments.

I have started a list that includes more than just rotation game tournaments, to try quantifying the best players of all games. The list includes plenty of rotation game tournaments as well. I'm not saying this will be the definitive way to claim someone is a best player in history, I don't even know if that is possible.

Anyway, that being said, should any of these tournaments not be considered? Any tournaments that I'm missing that should be considered?

All Japan Championship
American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship
China 9-Ball Open
Derby City Classic Bank Pool
Derby City Classic Bigfoot
Derby City Classic Nine Ball
Derby City Classic One Pocket
European Pool Championship 8 Ball
European Pool Championship 9 Ball
European Pool Championship 10 Ball
European Pool Championship Straight Pool
Japan Open
Mosconi MVP
Texas Open
UK Open 9 Ball
US Open 8 Ball
US Open 9 Ball
US Open 10 Ball
US Open Bank Pool
US Open One Pocket
US Open Straight Pool Championship
World 10 Ball
World 8 Ball
World 9 Ball
World Games 9 Ball
World Pool Masters
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Not yet, call back in 15 years
 
garczar said:
Sigel in his prime played kinda like Filler as in near perfect at times. A lot of guys get a tad weak in the finals but Mike came with the shit time after time. Playing 9b Efren was swimming upstream against Mike. Only game where ER would have been fave was in 1p and even at that Mike was no slouch.
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Wow, I think that Efren was the best that ever played in three disciplines: a) one pocket, b) 8ball, c) 15 ball rotation.
 
mjantti said:
So during their prime, who would win? Sigel or Filler? Race to 100. BO5.
Click to expand...

does this time travel take filler
back to 1980 or sigel to 2025?

considering either great player would adapt
to the times that they play, i think sigel would
do better with the advancements made in equipment
than filler would be able to adjust
to slow cloth and maple shafts etc.
 
markjames said:
does this time travel take filler
back to 1980 or sigel to 2025?

considering either great player would adapt
to the times that they play, i think sigel would
do better with the advancements made in equipment
than filler would be able to adjust
to slow cloth and maple shafts etc.
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Great post that clarifies why comparison is so difficult. FYI, fast cloth became the norm in pro competition by about 1983, so more than half of Mike's 9ball career (1976-93) was on fast cloth. Also, the vast majority of Filler's titles were won with a wooden shaft. How Filler would adapt to slow cloth is awfully hard to say.
 
sjm said:
Great post that clarifies why comparison is so difficult. FYI, fast cloth became the norm in pro competition by about 1983, so more than half of Mike's 9ball career (1976-93) was on fast cloth. Also, the vast majority of Filler's titles were won with a wooden shaft. How Filler would adapt to slow cloth is awfully hard to say.
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Filler, Shaw etc would play even better on slow cloth - they have the stroke for it
 
garczar said:
Sigel in his prime played kinda like Filler as in near perfect at times. A lot of guys get a tad weak in the finals but Mike came with the shit time after time. Playing 9b Efren was swimming upstream against Mike. Only game where ER would have been fave was in 1p and even at that Mike was no slouch.
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I would take prime Efren over prime Sigel in a race to 100 in any game. The only game Efren would probably lose is 14.1
 
8intheside said:
Not in his class? besides the break what advantage would sigel have?
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Efren and Sigel's primes coincided in the years 1985-1993. In those years, Mike absolutely dominated Efren at 9ball over many matchups.

See post #43, written by another who saw those years up close.
 
markjames said:
go back to post #27
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8intheside said:
I’m talking about skill for skill.
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Sigel’s power shots were better. His pattern play was better. His willingness to win was better. He was also universally known as the luckiest player. Efren lists Sigel as the one player he (Efren) would want to be. (TAR INTERVIEW)

Although SJM says that fast cloth became the norm in 1983, I would argue that nothing was the norm in 1983. So the pros were playing on all kinds of equipment. It was obvious to this fan that once fast cloth truly became the norm, Efren’s weakness against the other pros lessened. Efren himself says that the reason Earl and others started to dominant in the 90’s was because “no more Sigel,” and that Sigel always “knew how to win.

Every interview that Efren has, he always says that Mike Sigel was the best player, was the toughest opponent, etc. the records speak for themselves. Efren‘s record against Sigel wasn’t even worthy to consider it a rivarly. Sigel/Strickland and Sigel/Varner were much more competitive. I put a table up on number of major tournament wins in the 80’s when Efren came to America. From 1985-1989, Sigel outpaced everyone with 15 tournament 9-ball wins and 2 major 14.1 tournaments. Strickland and Varner were the next two. Efren had a total of 5 wins, 3 of which were in ‘85.

if 8-ball had been the game back then, I have no doubt that Sigel would have still outpaced everyone. His 14.1 pattern play was elite, and his break was better than all but Strickland and Wade Crane. At the IPT, I watched him practice about six games. He played better than anyone in the tournament in those six games. He broke and ran all of them, all while yapping away at anyone who’d listen. When it came to play the real finals, he froze up and was yippy all through it. That’s what you’ll remember. Sigel says he had an 8-pack in the practice room. I have zero doubts after watching him. Big break with the Sardo rack, picking balls off like apples off a tree. I watched the whole IPt. I never saw anyone manhandle those tables like Sigel did in the practice room,

I’m Filipino. I always was praying that Efren would win more, but if he ever got to the finals, he kept losing. And he didn’t get to the finals any more than the other top players. Sigel on the other hand, if he got to the finals, he had like a 95% win rate.
 
Cornerman said:
Sigel’s power shots were better. His pattern play was better. His willingness to win was better. He was also universally known as the luckiest player. Efren lists Sigel as the one player he (Efren) would want to be. (TAR INTERVIEW)

Although SJM says that fast cloth became the norm in 1983, I would argue that nothing was the norm in 1983. So the pros were playing on all kinds of equipment. It was obvious to this fan that once fast cloth truly became the norm, Efren’s weakness against the other pros lessened. Efren himself says that the reason Earl and others started to dominant in the 90’s was because “no more Sigel,” and that Sigel always “knew how to win.

Every interview that Efren has, he always says that Mike Sigel was the best player, was the toughest opponent, etc. the records speak for themselves. Efren‘s record against Sigel wasn’t even worthy to consider it a rivarly. Sigel/Strickland and Sigel/Varner were much more competitive. I put a table up on number of major tournament wins in the 80’s when Efren came to America. From 1985-1989, Sigel outpaced everyone with 15 tournament 9-ball wins and 2 major 14.1 tournaments. Strickland and Varner were the next two. Efren had a total of 5 wins, 3 of which were in ‘85.

if 8-ball had been the game back then, I have no doubt that Sigel would have still outpaced everyone. His 14.1 pattern play was elite, and his break was better than all but Strickland and Wade Crane. At the IPT, I watched him practice about six games. He played better than anyone in the tournament in those six games. He broke and ran all of them, all while yapping away at anyone who’d listen. When it came to play the real finals, he froze up and was yippy all through it. That’s what you’ll remember. Sigel says he had an 8-pack in the practice room. I have zero doubts after watching him. Big break with the Sardo rack, picking balls off like apples off a tree. I watched the whole IPt. I never saw anyone manhandle those tables like Sigel did in the practice room,

I’m Filipino. I always was praying that Efren would win more, but if he ever got to the finals, he kept losing. And he didn’t get to the finals any more than the other top players. Sigel on the other hand, if he got to the finals, he had like a 95% win rate.
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Interesting on IPT. To the viewers it looked like Sigel was tired and washed up in his match against Efren. No question about Mike having the deepest hunger to win everytime.
 
garczar said:
These 'best of all time' lists, in any sport, are imo a waste of time. You can only be the best in your career/era and trying to compare one to another is fun forum fodder(say that fast three times) but really means nada. All that being said, just based on his age filler could easily lap everyone on that list and set a career win target that would be tough to beat. Generational talent for sure. Still think he needs to grow up.
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Once he gets some age on him, he's gonna be a monster. Not that he isn't already but you know what I mean.
 
Cornerman said:
Sigel’s power shots were better. His pattern play was better. His willingness to win was better. He was also universally known as the luckiest player. Efren lists Sigel as the one player he (Efren) would want to be. (TAR INTERVIEW)

Although SJM says that fast cloth became the norm in 1983, I would argue that nothing was the norm in 1983. So the pros were playing on all kinds of equipment. It was obvious to this fan that once fast cloth truly became the norm, Efren’s weakness against the other pros lessened. Efren himself says that the reason Earl and others started to dominant in the 90’s was because “no more Sigel,” and that Sigel always “knew how to win.

Every interview that Efren has, he always says that Mike Sigel was the best player, was the toughest opponent, etc. the records speak for themselves. Efren‘s record against Sigel wasn’t even worthy to consider it a rivarly. Sigel/Strickland and Sigel/Varner were much more competitive. I put a table up on number of major tournament wins in the 80’s when Efren came to America. From 1985-1989, Sigel outpaced everyone with 15 tournament 9-ball wins and 2 major 14.1 tournaments. Strickland and Varner were the next two. Efren had a total of 5 wins, 3 of which were in ‘85.

if 8-ball had been the game back then, I have no doubt that Sigel would have still outpaced everyone. His 14.1 pattern play was elite, and his break was better than all but Strickland and Wade Crane. At the IPT, I watched him practice about six games. He played better than anyone in the tournament in those six games. He broke and ran all of them, all while yapping away at anyone who’d listen. When it came to play the real finals, he froze up and was yippy all through it. That’s what you’ll remember. Sigel says he had an 8-pack in the practice room. I have zero doubts after watching him. Big break with the Sardo rack, picking balls off like apples off a tree. I watched the whole IPt. I never saw anyone manhandle those tables like Sigel did in the practice room,

I’m Filipino. I always was praying that Efren would win more, but if he ever got to the finals, he kept losing. And he didn’t get to the finals any more than the other top players. Sigel on the other hand, if he got to the finals, he had like a 95% win rate.
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Efren is regarded as the best 8ball player of all time, I think his patrern play and cueball control is arguably the best there ever was. I’m not taking anything away from Mike Sigel, but Efren’s longevity and mastery of all pool games including billiards and snooker give him the nod in my opinion
 
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