About Diamond system geometry

J

JPol

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The "Diamond System" is well-known to 3-Cushion and Pool players. Even though it requires adjustments that fine players apply, it is widely used.
But where does it come from? When was it developed? In which country? By whom? How can it be justified?

"A Geometric Analysis of the Diamond System" does not answer all these interesting questions.
However, it offers some explanations about the formula and the markers.

See also "Diamond System History"

JPol
 
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The Diamond System comes on page 64 of 78. A required study. 🤷‍♂️
 
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The diagrams in the book Hoppe "wrote" are not good and very misleading. Everything magically goes to the corner.
 
7stud said:
Care to explain it? I'm familiar with and practice the three rail kicking system called the "Corner 5 System", and the two rail kicking system called the 'Plus 2 System"; are they THE "Diamond System" or are they A "Diamond System".
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"THE" diamond system usually refers to the corner 5
you are correct it is only one of many diamond systems or as you say "A" diamond system
 
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7stud said:
Care to explain it? I'm familiar with and practice the three rail kicking system called the "Corner 5 System" and the two rail kicking system called the 'Plus 2 System"; are they THE "Diamond System" or are they A "Diamond System".
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You are a wise man. I've always suggested that until one learns these two systems, all other multi-rail systems, many of which are valuable, should be ignored. You must walk before you run.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Hoppe didn't use it, and he didn't write the book. And, the system shown in his book is wrong. The discussion in Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards is much, much better.
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In "McGoorty" there is this tale about Hoppe, his book, and diamond systems:

"In Hoppe's book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to the Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the systems. He looked up at me and said, 'You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.'

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me that book and say, 'Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.'

'My boy,' I say, 'it can't be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.'

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Scaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn't need to use a system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue a little and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? F**k the system."

Lou Figueroa
 
Moe Szyslak said:
The diagrams in the book Hoppe "wrote" are not good and very misleading. Everything magically goes to the corner.
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I have studied his book and find it well worth the investment of time. Study, Practice and Experiment is my formula. 🤷‍♂️
I have employed the Diamond Systems successfully on many occasions. A favorite memory was the evaporated Smirk of my opponent. He was So proud of his safety that had me kicking 2 rails. I followed the numbers and not only made a hit, I pocketed the ball for the win.
The numbers are a baseline and variations of speed and spin will change the lines dramatically. Differences in equipment also change the results.
When I am playing seriously I check the 3 rail and 2 rail systems on a table new to me.
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Hoppe was ranked number 1 on the Billiards Digest 50 Greatest Players of the Century.
 
Bob Jewett said:
the system shown in his book is wrong.
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Well, I will be darned! It's a good thing I didn't know that. I have yet to find a diagram in the book that I couldn't emulate.
Is it Wrong when I can make a Wrong system work so well. 🤷‍♂️ 😉
How did you come by the knowledge that Willie Hoppe didn't write the book?
 
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The diagram.
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On new to me equipment a quick check of the 3 rails going corner to corner starts at 5 to 3 to 2 on the third rail. It gives me a baseline.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Hoppe didn't use it, and he didn't write the book. And, the system shown in his book is wrong. The discussion in Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards is much, much better.
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Don’t even know how many people I’ve led to “Byrne’s Standard…” thru the years. You two did a great job on it!!! Thanks.
 
The 'Most Accurate Interoperation' of the '50' or '5' Corner Diamond System and how to 'Correctly Calculate' the CB's position and the 'Allowances for 4 or more cushion shots' are in Raymond Ceulemans book, "Mr. 100"!

BTW, the 'Basis' for the 'Diamond System' to work is the fact that ALL tables, Pool or Carom are, "Twice as long as it is wide!"
 
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As a noob pooler I found those angle diagrams gold. That's where the cue ball goes. It's a map for playing position. Other books detail the "Picasso Effect" to complete the genre.
 
JPol said:
The "Diamond System" is well-known to 3-Cushion and Pool players. Even though it requires adjustments that fine players apply, it is widely used.
But where does it come from? When was it developed? In which country? By whom? How can it be justified?

"A Geometric Analysis of the Diamond System" does not answer all these interesting questions.
However, it offers some explanations about the formula and the markers.

See also "Diamond System History"

JPol
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My memory is pretty shot, but I think I still have some kind of some possible timelines. The first indoor tables were made of wood and some had parquet beds on them, around 1600 . I am not sure if they used it right away but the rails were at one point made up of sail cloth strips .{I f I am not mistaken ,I think Bob Jewett and Bob BYrne made a set of rails for a table they had and played on it with decent results. We know in 1800 Goodyear vulcanized rubber so it probably wasn't long after that they were making table cushions from it, Captain Mingaud was under house arrest and had a pool table at his disposal, not sure if it had sailcloth or rubber rails, my guess would be rubber because of some of the shots in his book. The Noble Game of Billiards written in 1827, he described masse shots draw follow jump shots , basically everything we know about the game he perfected. There is no reason for me to not believe that he had at least some working system for going around the table he was just too clever not to have thought of it. Plus some of his shots are multiple rails with pinpoint accuracy
If not , then at least when Michael Phelan first put the diamonds in the rails for aiming points , sometime in the 1850s there was some knowledge of tracks.
Phelans son in law was Dudley Kavanaugh, a champion after Phelan retired , who then had a nephew who was interested in playing , his name was Maurice Daly, he was one of the first true "billiards" players, and guess who his premiere student was , Willie Hoppe !
I was told Hoppe was a mentor to Harold Worst but I don't think I verified that. So it might be possible that Hoppe invented some type of system, but he was undoubtedly not the first ever. If I made any mistakes feel free to correct them , I am just trying to give a little more depth.
 
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