Any videos of Dr Dave in an actual match?

[boogieman]

The pecking order at the local hall never changes. Except when someone is coming up, or when someone gets old. Every player here knows this, we all see it with our own eyes.

The reason is genetics gave each of us a max.

The truth is people are born better or worse than each other. Everyone is not equal at birth.

I agree. I don't know if it's genetics or not but some people just take to the game better than others. I think any player may be able to raise their fargo 100 points if they get super dedicated, but more than that is just as rare as can be. A 50 point swing is more realistic but even that rarely happens after becoming established.

Unless there is very little robustness it's very uncommon to even see people raise fargo 50 points after years of playing.

And you're entirely correct, the pecking order rarely changes except through the things you mentioned.

 

[Oze147]

As someone mentioned Johan Ruijsnik, I think there is a big difference between an instructor and a coach.
Years back I saw Johan at an Eurotour event. There were two visitors tables and in a quiet minute Johan grabbed a cue and started shooting...and it looked like friday night beer league. Because Johan is a coach not an instructor. He does work with players, who know how to play, but need guidance on a much deeper level than just working on their draw shots.

Back to topic, in my eyes it is not really relevant how good or bad Dr. Dave plays in a league or tournament. He provides free knowledge and it is up to eveyone himself what to take or what not to take from it.

 

[westcoast]

There are a ton of players at 450 trying to get to 500. 500 trying to get to 550. And so on. It doesn’t happen. I’m talking about mature players that have saught help and take the game seriously. Not teenagers or brand new adult players.

Players don’t jump class. It’s a complete rarity if it does happen.

The truth hurts.

True, players usually don’t get dramatically better if they’ve been playing for awhile and there may be a ceiling, but I think part of it is just not playing enough and not the right level of competition.

For example, the best I ever played was when I was playing on a consistent basis and entering tournaments with higher level players. I didn’t get great, but definitely better than I usually play now (been too busy with other things and Hard Times Bellflower closed- where I used to enter Sunday tournaments).

 

[Frosty]

You can teach a lot of things, you can learn a lot of things, but you can’t teach or learn a “competitive nature”. You either have it, or you do not.

 

[Oikawa]

There are a ton of players at 450 trying to get to 500. 500 trying to get to 550. And so on. It doesn’t happen. I’m talking about mature players that have saught help and take the game seriously. Not teenagers or brand new adult players.

Players don’t jump class. It’s a complete rarity if it does happen.

The truth hurts.

Most of those 450s not reaching 500 is due to the amount/quality of practice not being high enough, not that they are at their "genetic skill ceiling". I can see the maturing argument for 60+ or especially 70+ year olds in that it gets exponentially harder to jump class in pool past a certain age, but even then, the level they reached isn't mostly about genetics to begin with, it was how much practice and table time they put in throughout their life.

For younger adults, lets say roughly 20-60 year olds with average health, average physique and average "pool talent", the true skill ceiling depends on whether you are speaking practically (within the constraints of their life) or theoretically (giving up everything for pool + being rich). Most adults have jobs and families to support, so them putting in 40+ hour practice time per week isn't realistic. Most people also aren't lucky or rich enough to be able to afford or otherwise locate world-class coaching. So these two factors already make 99% of peoples practice suboptimal.

In the case of a typical 30-50 year old 500 or 600 rated player, who has played for 10-20 years, practices 0-10 hours a week and has not done major technical changes in their game for years, it is hard, but definitely possible to jump 50, or even 100 fargo points within 2-5 years. But most people don't have the amount of time for what that takes. And even more importantly, most people don't practice well enough for that to happen. Quality of practice, including making technical changes as needed, is the simple most important thing, which greatly benefits from coaching. So, I wouldn't call talent the deciding factor for most people, but rather the time and quality of practice they happen to get in.

If we compare two players who both practiced roughly the same time over their life, started at the same age, had same quality of practice, but the other ended up at 500 and the other at 700 given their course of life, then talent is an appropriate word. But saying 500s who have already played for years are stuck at 500 for life due to their lack of talent isn't accurate. Sure, there are exceptions, medical conditions can severely handicap your game, but not a single average-health, average-brain 50 year old is hard capped at 500 due to their lack of talent. It just becomes more and more difficult the older you are, especially considering practical limitations of time and quality.

A common example of a 650-700 is someone who started in their early teenage years or even younger, possibly parents owning a pool hall or a bar, put in a lot of practice time in their teenage years and/or early adulthood playing with other 650-700s. Then when they are 30-40, and playing at 650-700 speed, a 600 who started at 20 yo with average practice routines will look at their game and think the 650-700 is so talented. But it is very possible that the 600 would also be a 650-700 had they started at the same age with the same practice throughout their life.

Again, I agree with your arguments for reaching 750+, or 700+ for those who didn't start young. But below that it's much more about practice time/quality.

 

[Oikawa]

The pecking order at the local hall never changes. Except when someone is coming up, or when someone gets old. Every player here knows this, we all see it with our own eyes.

The reason is genetics gave each of us a max.

The truth is people are born better or worse than each other. Everyone is not equal at birth.

I've seen counter examples of this from those who put in massive amounts of quality practice, getting from 500 to 650 or 400 to 550 even at 40+ years old within a span of 5 years. The reason most don't is that they don't put in the time or take it seriously enough. 95% of those within the pecking order are nowhere near putting in enough time or quality needed for this. So I agree with the pecking order mostly not changing practically speaking, but the reason isn't only talent or lack of. It's the work they put in. And most people put relatively low amount of work into pool.

 

[lfigueroa]

Most of those 450s not reaching 500 is due to the amount/quality of practice not being high enough, not that they are at their "genetic skill ceiling". I can see the maturing argument for 60+ or especially 70+ year olds in that it gets exponentially harder to jump class in pool past a certain age, but even then, the level they reached isn't mostly about genetics to begin with, it was how much practice and table time they put in throughout their life.

For younger adults, lets say roughly 20-60 year olds with average health, average physique and average "pool talent", the true skill ceiling depends if you are speaking practically (within the constraints of their life) or theoretically (giving up everything for pool + being rich). Most adults have jobs and families to support, so them putting in 40+ hour practice time per week isn't realistic. Most people also aren't lucky or rich enough to be able to afford or otherwise locate world-class coaching. So these two factors already make 99% of peoples practice suboptimal.

In the case of a typical 30-50 year old 500 or 600 rated player, who has played for 10-20 years, practices 0-10 hours a week and has not done major technical changes in their game for years, it is hard, but definitely possible to jump 50, or even 100 fargo points within 2-5 years. But most people don't have the amount of time for what that takes. And even more importantly, most people don't practice well enough for that to happen. Quality of practice, including making technical changes as needed, is the simple most important thing, which greatly benefits from coaching. So, I wouldn't call talent the deciding factor for most people, but rather the time and quality of practice they happen to get in.

If we compare two players who both practiced roughly the same time over their life, started at the same age, had same quality of practice, but the other ended up at 500 and the other at 700 given their course of life, then talent is an appropriate word. But saying 500s who have already played for years are stuck at 500 for life due to their lack of talent isn't accurate. Sure, there are exceptions, medical conditions can severely handicap your game, but not a single average-health, average-brain 50 year old is hard capped at 500 due to their lack of talent. It just becomes more and more difficult the older you are, especially considering practical limitations of time and quality.

A common example of a 700 is someone who started in their early teenage years or even younger, possibly parents owning a pool hall or a bar, put in a lot of practice time in their teenage years and/or early adulthood playing with other 700s. Then when they are 30-40, and playing at 700 speed, a 600 who started at 20 yo with average practice routines will look at their game and think the 700 is so talented. But it is very possible that the 600 would also be a 700 had they started at the same age with the same amount of practice throughout their life.

Again, I agree with your arguments for reaching 750+, or 700+ for those who didn't start young. But below that it's much more about practice time/quality.

I agree with most of this.

You have to put in the time and do the reps but you also have to know what needs improving, how to make changes, evaluate what you've changed, then wash, rinse, and repeat. Just hitting balls ain't gonna do it. So you either have the insight and self-awareness to do it on your own or you need a sherpa to guide you up the mountain. No reason a player with half decent mechanics and understanding of the game's physics can't improve 50 points if they're willing to do the work.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
Players don’t jump class. It’s a complete rarity if it does happen. ...

I think it's rare for players who have been at a level for a long time to improve significantly because they have a certain set of habits. Those are comfortable for them and a routine that their pool life keeps falling into. It's human nature to find a routine.

To break out of that is very hard. The player has to break a routine or soften an obstinate attitude to leave the plateau, maybe like truly working on their weaknesses or admitting that maybe instruction can help them.

Same results as always? Try a change.

 

[DaWizard]

 

[dr_dave]

I agree with most of this.

You have to put in the time and do the reps but you also have to know what needs improving, how to make changes, evaluate what you've changed, then wash, rinse, and repeat. Just hitting balls ain't gonna do it. So you either have the insight and self-awareness to do it on your own or you need a sherpa to guide you up the mountain. No reason a player with half decent mechanics and understanding of the game's physics can't improve 50 points if they're willing to do the work.

Lou Figueroa

A dedicated player willing to work hard, learn the things they need to learn, and practice smartly can easily raise their game by much more than 50 points if they are committed to improving. For example, I have seen many dedicated players advance from 400 level to 550 level within a couple of years after putting in the necessary work. "Natural talent" and "starting young" are certainly factors, but I think they are often grossly overrated.

Now, going from 650 to 800 is another matter entirely. You need to have everything it takes to play like a top pro to do this.

 

[Chopdoc]

I don’t know why anybody would care about watching me play; but if you really want to, I have lots of examples available in the “Example Videos of Dr. Dave Playing Pool” section near the bottom of the page here:

Dr. Dave pool bio and info
​

The first two sentences in the bio explain exactly why people would want to see video of you playing matches.

 

[lfigueroa]

A dedicated player willing to work hard, learn the things they need to learn, and practice smartly can easily raise their game by much more than 50 points if they are committed to improving. For example, I have seen many dedicated players advance from 400 level to 550 level within a couple of years after putting in the necessary work. "Natural talent" and "starting young" are certainly factors, but I think they are often grossly overrated.

Now, going from 650 to 800 is another matter entirely. You need to have everything it takes to play like a top pro to do this.

Yes, but I didn't want to over reach ;-)

A 50 point upswing is more doable if you're in the 4-550 range. The further up the mountain you are, the thinner the air, the steeper the climb, the tougher each step gets.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... The further up the mountain you are, the thinner the air, the steeper the climb, the tougher each step gets...

There have been a few of maybe 500 level who announced the start of their climbs through the 10,000 hours. I remember one who posted frequently about his progress. "Sam Something"? I think he got as far as the low foothills. It's hard, especially for those who have distractions like jobs and families.

 

[straightline]

You can break down the class by psych letter (lol) and it might correlate all the way to the entry levels - IDC. Fact is anything prestigious, winning pool matches in this case, is subject to the powers that be.

I do think the academia (how to shoot etc...) is there for the taking. Excelling at the psychic mosh is another matter; one shrouded in mystery and non belief...

 

[iusedtoberich]

I'll give you guys a good example. Forty. He's a good buddy of mine, I've played him since the 90's. A through and through pool player, well before his brother got famous. He's a good player from Philly. Once his brother got famous acting, they had millions. He quit everything and focused on pool. Got professional instruction from Robin out west. He'd fly there every so often for another lesson. He's made pool his life the past 10 years. He even went to the middle east and played the MR events there.

With all that, he's about the same speed he was 20 years ago.

 

[straightline]

I'll give you guys a good example. Forty. He's a good buddy of mine, I've played him since the 90's. A through and through pool player, well before his brother got famous. He's a good player from Philly. Once his brother got famous acting, they had millions. He quit everything and focused on pool. Got professional instruction from Robin out west. He'd fly there every so often for another lesson. He's made pool his life the past 10 years. He even went to the middle east and played the MR events there.

With all that, he's about the same speed he was 20 years ago.

Nothing more hart won't fix.

 

[sixpack]

I'll give you guys a good example. Forty. He's a good buddy of mine, I've played him since the 90's. A through and through pool player, well before his brother got famous. He's a good player from Philly. Once his brother got famous acting, they had millions. He quit everything and focused on pool. Got professional instruction from Robin out west. He'd fly there every so often for another lesson. He's made pool his life the past 10 years. He even went to the middle east and played the MR events there.

With all that, he's about the same speed he was 20 years ago.

I’ve certainly seen a lot of examples that back up your claim. I quit for 10 years and when I came back with about 3 hours of knocking the rust out I still beat the same players I used to beat and lost to the same players I used to lose to. Except one. Who was a banger when I quit and is now a local champion.

Nevermind that everybody but me had been playing straight through.

It’s more about goals.

People set goals early in their pool career based on their vision of what a good player is or how good they want to be.

Maybe they want to “be competitive” in leagues. Or maybe they want to win their local bar tournament sometimes.

Some players set their sights higher. Some keep adjusting their goals and improve their vision. These players are extremely rare.

In general, players work like hell to get to the level they set for themselves and then spend the rest of their life trying to stay there.

To improve, the most important thing they have to change is what they expect out of their game. And Then work like hell to get to the new level they expect to reach.

 

[T411]

People don't jump class in life. From how good looking they are, to how smart they are, to how strong they are, to how well they play sport xyz. Carry on

A dr has a height chart for kids and knows how tall they will become as adults.
In first grade, we know who the smart kids are and who the dumb kids are, and it doesn't change in middle school, high school, or college.
In first grade we know which kids will be fat and which will be skinny.
In first grade we knew which kids will be mean and which will be nice.
In first grade we know which kids play the best sports at recess, and which can't catch the ball.

All these traits/abilities/genetics/desire/whatever you want to call them, stick around for life. Maybe a very small percentage of exceptions.

There are a ton of players at 450 trying to get to 500. 500 trying to get to 550. And so on. It doesn’t happen. I’m talking about mature players that have saught help and take the game seriously. Not teenagers or brand new adult players.

Players don’t jump class. It’s a complete rarity if it does happen.

The truth hurts.

The pecking order at the local hall never changes. Except when someone is coming up, or when someone gets old. Every player here knows this, we all see it with our own eyes.

The reason is genetics gave each of us a max.

The truth is people are born better or worse than each other. Everyone is not equal at birth.

I agree with just about here though I will say I have seen pecking orders change a few times. I’ve seen players gain something by who they are hanging out with. Some people are missing an ingredient in their own game and they can’t even put a finger on it. And then they happen to run into a person or gain friend that just knows how or what to say that gets them there. Rare but I’ve witnessed it myself and I know of a couple of players that this has happed for at the professional level. As magical as it happens I’ve seen those same players go the other direction as soon as their company changed. I don’t think they even realize why it happed for them in ether direction. And I’m not talking about drug use because I know that happens too.

I think the difference between great players and the average Joe that is grinding it out trying to get better and will only to a certain level is a person’s mindset on what they focus on. A few have the ability to know just what to focus on and the game comes easier because of it. Then there’s most everyone else who focus or get sidetracked on everything that’s not important. It’s sort of like common sense… it’s really not all that common.

 

[bbb]

@iusedtoberich
i recommend you read this book and rethink your assumptions

Talent is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class …

One of the most popular Fortune articles in many years …

www.goodreads.com

 

[bbb]

from the above link
bolded part by me
.......................
One of the most popular Fortune articles in many years was a cover story called: "What It Takes to Be Great." Geoff Colvin offered new evidence that top performers in any field are not determined by their inborn talents. Greatness doesn't come from DNA but from practice and perseverance honed over decades. The key is how you practice, how you analyze the results of your progress and learn from your mistakes, that enables you to achieve greatness.