China Open

[sjm]

It would certainly make the racking and the break shot nearly irrelevant. For many, that would not be 9-Ball.

Personally, I think it's worth a try in a significant event.

It has been suggested by some who've played this way that it's inadvisable to make a ball on the break as the one pushing out is, on average, at a slight disadvantage. If so, the break would remain relevant.

The premise of this thread is that the excitement level at the China Open was reduced because alternate break meant nobody could run packages. Yes, off a dry break, a player could run two racks, but that's the max. Seems to me that adoption of the "mandatory push after the break" format, which would make even two racks run in one innings impossible, would reduce the excitement level even further. Fans love seeing the pros running packages!

Taking extreme measures (with the most obvious example being call shot call safe 10ball) to try to eliminate the luck factor in pro pool rarely serves the interests of the fans. Event producers that ignore this probably deserve to fail.

 

[Bob Jewett]

It has been suggested by some who've played this way that it's inadvisable to make a ball on the break as the one pushing out is, on average, at a slight disadvantage. If so, the break would remain relevant.
...

Pat Fleming has proposed that the person in control of the table after the break can say who will push out, so making a ball is still a small advantage.

 

[fjk]

Taking extreme measures (with the most obvious example being call shot call safe 10ball) to try to eliminate the luck factor in pro pool rarely serves the interests of the fans. Event producers that ignore this probably deserve to fafail.

I don't know buddy, the critical assumption to your statement is someone surveyed pool fans and could speak for the majority. To my knowledge, those data don't exist. For some reason, a real lot of people play recreational and league pool, but in relation to that large number, very few watch professional pool.

An analogy I've used before is poker viewership. I believe people enjoy watching poker because of all the interesting characters; not for the quality of poker being played. Members of this forums always talk about how pool was better to watch with all the old time characters with personalities.

Make the game harder and include more strategy and I believe we will see more personalities being displayed. You guys can keep the excitement of watching huge packages being run by emotionless robots with pattern breaking, I find that painfully boring.

 

[sjm]

I don't know buddy, the critical assumption to your statement is someone surveyed pool fans and could speak for the majority. To my knowledge, those data don't exist. For some reason, a real lot of people play recreational and league pool, but in relation to that large number, very few watch professional pool.

For starters, I have interacted with pool's fan base on a regular basis since 1976, having attended several hundred events live over that period. Nonetheless, that is only a small part of the picture.

The fans have not only spoken out on this subject but they have screamed out. Twenty-five years ago, several players and event producers tried to replace 9ball with 10ball, speculating that the fans wanted a harder game and that 9ball would soon fall of the face of the earth. Twenty-five years later, there are probably still twenty 9ball events for every 10ball event in pro pool. Call shot 10ball is not what the fans wanted. 9ball was, and 9ball remains the game in which pool players make most of their livings. When a couple of event producers tried call shot call safe 10 ball, they were even more wrong, and that version of 10ball basically disappeared, ultimately rejected by both fans and players.

An analogy I've used before is poker viewership. I believe people enjoy watching poker because of all the interesting characters; not for the quality of poker being played. Members of this forums always talk about how pool was better to watch with all the old time characters with personalities.

Poker has to be the most boring thing on television. Pool was not better to watch back in the day and few were watching. Pool was worse. There are plenty of "characters" in the game today (Shaw, Oi, Pagulayan, Melling, Kaci, Souto, Sanderson to name a few). Perhaps the action scene was more vibrant back in the day, but more people watch action matches today than ever before.

Make the game harder and include more strategy and I believe we will see more personalities being displayed. You guys can keep the excitement of watching huge packages being run by emotionless robots with pattern breaking, I find that painfully boring.

I am on the other side of this argument. I think the game may already be too hard. The four inch pockets with the narrow break box version of 9ball in use in WNT events makes the game very difficult and packages are few and far between. At the World 9ball in July, there was just one 5-pack and one 4-pack in the entire event. Packages are not as big a part of the game as they were back in the day. The 4 3/4" pockets of yesteryear meant more, not less, offense and less strategy than today.

Finally, I have seen no evidence that player personalities come out more when the game is harder.

 

[skogstokig]

i found the outfit i was looking for, it was called sharks. here's an example of mandatory push money match:

 

[kollegedave]

For starters, I have interacted with pool's fan base on a regular basis since 1976, having attended several hundred events live over that period. Nonetheless, that is only a small part of the picture.

The fans have not only spoken out on this subject but they have screamed out. Twenty-five years ago, several players and event producers tried to replace 9ball with 10ball, speculating that the fans wanted a harder game and that 9ball would soon fall of the face of the earth. Twenty-five years later, there are probably still twenty 9ball events for every 10ball event in pro pool. Call shot 10ball is not what the fans wanted. 9ball was, and 9ball remains the game in which pool players make most of their livings. When a couple of event producers tried call shot call safe 10 ball, they were even more wrong, and that version of 10ball basically disappeared, ultimately rejected by both fans and players.

Poker has to be the most boring thing on television. Pool was not better to watch back in the day and few were watching. Pool was worse. There are plenty of "characters" in the game today (Shaw, Oi, Pagulayan, Melling, Kaci, Souto, Sanderson to name a few). Perhaps the action scene was more vibrant back in the day, but more people watch action matches today than ever before.

I am on the other side of this argument. I think the game may already be too hard. The four inch pockets with the narrow break box version of 9ball in use in WNT events makes the game very difficult and packages are few and far between. At the World 9ball in July, there was just one 5-pack and one 4-pack in the entire event. Packages are not as big a part of the game as they were back in the day. The 4 3/4" pockets of yesteryear meant more, not less, offense and less strategy than today.

Finally, I have seen no evidence that player personalities come out more when the game is harder.

SJM,

As usual, I enjoy reading your responses.

A buddy of mine made this suggestion (I don't hate it). Some may view it as "not 9 ball anymore", but I wonder if it wouldn't improve things.

Suppose for the break shot only (we currently do things now for the break shot only--like a break box), the balls were racked randomly around the 9, with the head ball on the spot or the 9 on the spot--take your pick. The breaker continues to shoot under "normal" 9 ball rules after the break. Accordingly, for the break shot only, the shooter does not have to hit the one ball, rather he only needs to pocket a ball.

This would eliminate pattern racking and playing shape on the one ball after the break, but it could allow the game to keep a "big" break shot, and might reward players that can hit the rack hard and control the cue ball at the same time, and broadly speaking, I am in favor of rewarding this skill set, as it suggests the player has a full range of skill.

If more chance were introduced into the game, I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to open the pockets up more? My hope would be to encourage players to take on exciting shots, because the potential reward is big. Whereas now, with tiny pockets, I think players are incentivized to choose safety play in many scenarios.

kollegedave

 

[sjm]

Suppose for the break shot only (we currently do things now for the break shot only--like a break box), the balls were racked randomly around the 9, with the head ball on the spot or the 9 on the spot--take your pick. The breaker continues to shoot under "normal" 9 ball rules after the break. Accordingly, for the break shot only, the shooter does not have to hit the one ball, rather he only needs to pocket a ball.

Not a bad idea, but I think the tough break rules (nine on the spot with a narrow break box) of the WNT have made things tough enough.

This would eliminate pattern racking

At least in WNT, even in Stage 1, referees rack the balls, not the players. There is no pattern racking when referees rack.

My opinion is that "rack your own" should not be permitted in any tournament. To pool's credit, it has become less and less common.

 

[garczar]

Then one mandatory push after the break wouldn't be a disruption at all. It would stop all the racking issues and pattern breaking. It would also ensure everyone has a fighting chance every rack. What's not to like?

that's never going to happen. book it. They outta just play 10b with Derby's TE rules. Takes ALL the break bullshit out of the picture. IMO Texas Express 10b would cure a lot of problems in one swoop. again, that's never gonna happen either. If i was gonna start a US tour it would be the "Texas Express Ten-ball Tour".

 

[sjm]

If more chance were introduced into the game, I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to open the pockets up more? My hope would be to encourage players to take on exciting shots, because the potential reward is big. Whereas now, with tiny pockets, I think players are incentivized to choose safety play in many scenarios.

Agreed. The super-pockets are, for my taste, too tight, and as you suggest, they are discouraging players from taking on some of the shots we'd enjoy seeing.

 

[garczar]

Agreed. The super-pockets are, for my taste, too tight, and as you suggest, they are discouraging players from taking on some of the shots we'd enjoy seeing.

4.5, 'maybe' 4.25, should be fine. Watching what should be a flowing, offense filled game turned into safety filled drudgery on 4" pockets does the game no good.

 

[sjm]

4.5, 'maybe' 4.25, should be fine. Watching what should be a flowing, offense filled game turned into safety filled drudgery on 4" pockets does the game no good.

For me, 4 1/4" would be perfect. I am always amused when people on this forum look to change 9ball because it is too easy. I think it has become too difficult and, as you suggest, 9ball has lost some of its free-flowing identity. I have, in the past, referred to what has happened as the "10-ballization" of 9ball. I enjoy safety play, but breathtaking surges of offensive wizardry are less common than in the past, and that makes pool a bit less exciting.

 

[fjk]

Finally, I have seen no evidence that player personalities come out more when the game is harder.

Have you seen evidence to the contrary? I'm going to go out on a limb and say players show more raw emotion (personality) when frustrated than they do with success. The table-jumping-fist-pumping celebration after a big finals victory is so contrived it's cringeworthy.

Another point (please don't take offense): yourself and the people you interact with at tournaments (including me) are not a good representation of the average person promoters would hope to attract to increase pool viewership. Reminds me of the old adage "fish see water last".

As a social experiment, try polling random adults in a busy mall to name five famous pool players from any era, dead or alive. I'm guess that on average, people will be able to name 3 or 4 in total and then draw a blank. Guess what the most common answer would be. I'd speculate it would either be Willie Mosconi or Minnesota Fats. Of course, Willie Mosconi we could all understand because of his accomplishments. Minnesota Fasts is where we should draw our attention though. He was largely known because of his entertaining personality.

In my opinion, we will increase viewership and make pool spectatorship more mainstream when we focus more on entertainment then the subtleties of world class pool that only a tiny fraction of the general public will ever see or understand. As diehard pool fans like us, we can only hope that answer doesn't dilute the beauty of the game itself.

Having all that been said, I hope you don't mind me challenging you on this. Trust me, if I ever planned on dumping big money into a pool calcutta, I would seek out your advice first and take it above all others. We just differ on how to increase pool viewership and of course...I could be wrong; I'm wrong often.

 

[sunnyone]

Lee Child, the author who created Reacher, said, "It's the character, stupid." Paraphrased. His point was that no one really remembers the plot -- it's the personality they care the most about. And, Reacher certainly is memorable.

You're welcome,

Sunny

 

[pt109]

Then one mandatory push after the break wouldn't be a disruption at all. It would stop all the racking issues and pattern breaking. It would also ensure everyone has a fighting chance every rack. What's not to like?

I wouldn’t watch mandatory push’…..what’s next….no first round wins in boxing?

 

[garczar]

Lee Child, the author who created Reacher, said, "It's the character, stupid." Paraphrased. His point was that no one really remembers the plot -- it's the personality they care the most about. And, Reacher certainly is memorable.

You're welcome,

Sunny

Yep. We still talk about the real characters from 30+ yrs ago. In the future how many people will be doing the same? Highly unlikely just based on how 'vanilla icecream boring' so many of today's players are. They'd rather talk about their new fkng fone.

 

[pt109]

Lee Child, the author who created Reacher, said, "It's the character, stupid." Paraphrased. His point was that no one really remembers the plot -- it's the personality they care the most about. And, Reacher certainly is memorable.

You're welcome,

Sunny

6.5, 250, triple smart with fast reflexes, fearless…..every thing I’m not….read all of Lee Child.

 

[JPB2]

that's never going to happen. book it. They outta just play 10b with Derby's TE rules. Takes ALL the break bullshit out of the picture. IMO Texas Express 10b would cure a lot of problems in one swoop. again, that's never gonna happen either. If i was gonna start a US tour it would be the "Texas Express Ten-ball Tour".

While I don’t love 10 ball, a good part of it is the rules. The best form of it is what you propose. Seeing SVB hit a hard break from towards center table and run them is a good thing.

 

[garczar]

While I don’t love 10 ball, a good part of it is the rules. The best form of it is what you propose. Seeing SVB hit a hard break from towards center table and run them is a good thing.

Might add a 'call-the-10b' option for those who hate to see the cheese get shit in. Call10 would fine with me.

 

[JPB2]

Might add a 'call-the-10b' option for those who hate to see the cheese get shit in. Call10 would fine with me.

Nah, I like annoying the avoid luck at all costs crowd. . But seriously top players don’t risk de the cheese. The occasional fluke? That’s life.

 

[9BallKY]

SJM,

As usual, I enjoy reading your responses.

A buddy of mine made this suggestion (I don't hate it). Some may view it as "not 9 ball anymore", but I wonder if it wouldn't improve things.

Suppose for the break shot only (we currently do things now for the break shot only--like a break box), the balls were racked randomly around the 9, with the head ball on the spot or the 9 on the spot--take your pick. The breaker continues to shoot under "normal" 9 ball rules after the break. Accordingly, for the break shot only, the shooter does not have to hit the one ball, rather he only needs to pocket a ball.
kollegedave

They just had a 10 ball tournament like this a couple weeks ago. Really wasn’t much difference in watching a normal 10 ball tournament nor did change the outcome. The tournament was won by the highest Fargo rated player.