Predator's WPA Women's World 9 Ball

sjm said:
Thanks for your input. This is a well-reasoned and well-presented post. I agree that Savannah, who will be sixteen in seven weeks, is improving and I wish her well. Perhaps she will go on to be a great player, but she is not yet threatening the most elite players and many of the greatest young female phenoms already were at that age.

That said, I was already watching women's pro pool in the 1970s and have probably attended nearly 100 WPBA events live in my life. I have a lot of observation upon which to base my contention that her rate of progress is not as great as what I'm used to seeing from those that go on to be the greatest champions. I mentioned Jean Balukas, Loree Jon Jones, Siming Chen, Han Yu, and Jasmin Ouschan all did major damage on the international circuit as teens. So did Sha Sha Liu, World 9ball champion at 16. Prior to the existence of the WPBA, California's Robin Dodson won two Caifornia State championships as a teen. Cheka Centeno probably played Fargo 725 speed as a teen. Ga Young Kim was already posting wins against the world's most elite players as a teen, too.

The last two notable American teen phenoms were in the 2010s. They were Briana Miller and April Larson, both of whom were very capable cueists posting some solid results by age 17. Neither went on to be a superstar in women's pool, although both play nicely (Briana is #51 and April is #57).

As for your suggestion that the Top 20 today weren't great players at Savannah's age, you are mistaken. It simply means that you do not follow the women's pro game very closely. Looking at a few of them, a) Siming Chen was world champ at 16, b) Han Yu was already winning majors by 17, c) Sha Sha Liu was World champion by 16, d) Jasmin Ouschan was already one of the world's best 9ball and 14.1 players at 16, e) Kristina Tkach won three Eurotour events by 17. Most of the top female players were already doing a lot of damage on the tournament scene in their teens.

Once upon a time, it was America that produced the world's best female players, but now it is Asia. Much has been written of the superb training academies for women's pool players in Asia and how they keep mass producing superstar players. Asia has 34 of the Fargo Top 50 women and not even one of the other 16 is American born. There is little doubt in my mind that both Savannah and Sofia will change this, but if you ask me if I convinced that either will be a Top 20 player in the world down the road, I will say no. I expect that the Asian training machine to continue producing the giants of the game with a sizable contingent from Europe, but for now, I'm not convinced that America is going to produce its share of the world's best women players. Of course, it is quite possible I am wrong here and I will be rooting for both Savannah and Sofia every step of the way.

To sum, I agree with you that Savannah is progressing, but I am in a position to compare that rate of progress to that of the many female teen phenoms that I have watched over fifty years. It is my considered opinion that Savannah's progress is slow compared to what I've seen from those that went on to be the giants of women's pool.

Of course, the bottom line here is that I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, so we'll see how it all develops.
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Stu I think there is one really important issue in saying the 2 ladies in ? aren't as accomplished as former players who became world champions. That issue is the level of play is way higher now then when Balukas was young.
 
sjm said:
[...]

To sum, I agree with you that Savannah is progressing, but I am in a position to compare that rate of progress to that of the many female teen phenoms that I have watched over fifty years. It is my considered opinion that Savannah's progress is slow compared to what I've seen from those that went on to be the giants of women's pool.
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You've cited several good examples Stu.
An interesting contrast is Pia Blaeser, who as a 17, 18, 19, and 20 year old was performing in the 640-650 range, 30+ points below where Savannah and Sofia are now and about 80 points below a teenage Kristina Tkatch.

She did get a new sparring partner after that...
 
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VVP said:
What a paid to have to listen to George T. commentating. Long past time to put him out to pasture.
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He is by far the worst commentator in pool. If he's yapping i'm hoppin. He's always tries to pronounce names like he's from that country, its irritating as fk.
 
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garczar said:
He is by far the worst commentator in pool. If he's yapping i'm hoppin. He's always tries to pronounce names like he's from that country, its irritating as fk.
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Really bad commentary. He is saying players are snookered when they are not. The camera work is not helping also. Balls are rolling to precarious positions and they choose to show the player's face instead of the full table.

George needs to go, but if they decide to keep him for welfare payments then he needs to stick to giving stats or those kinds of things and leave the technical commentary to the professionals.
 
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George T and Mark White are two guys who keep getting booked who I can’t stand. They’re both have diarrhea of the mouth and don’t know when to shut up.
 
Nice match by Seo. Poor Fisher fans can go crying home. Two asshats sitting next to me were appalled I was “rooting for the Korean girl”. Lmfao
 
sjm said:
Thanks for your input. This is a well-reasoned and well-presented post. I agree that Savannah, who will be sixteen in seven weeks, is improving and I wish her well. Perhaps she will go on to be a great player, but she is not yet threatening the most elite players and many of the greatest young female phenoms already were at that age.

That said, I was already watching women's pro pool in the 1970s and have probably attended nearly 100 WPBA events live in my life. I have a lot of observation upon which to base my contention that her rate of progress is not as great as what I'm used to seeing from those that go on to be the greatest champions. I mentioned Jean Balukas, Loree Jon Jones, Siming Chen, Han Yu, and Jasmin Ouschan all did major damage on the international circuit as teens. So did Sha Sha Liu, World 9ball champion at 16. Prior to the existence of the WPBA, California's Robin Dodson won two Caifornia State championships as a teen. Cheka Centeno probably played Fargo 725 speed as a teen. Ga Young Kim was already posting wins against the world's most elite players as a teen, too.

The last two notable American teen phenoms were in the 2010s. They were Briana Miller and April Larson, both of whom were very capable cueists posting some solid results by age 17. Neither went on to be a superstar in women's pool, although both play nicely (Briana is #51 and April is #57).

As for your suggestion that the Top 20 today weren't great players at Savannah's age, you are mistaken. It simply means that you do not follow the women's pro game very closely. Looking at a few of them, a) Siming Chen was world champ at 16, b) Han Yu was already winning majors by 17, c) Sha Sha Liu was World champion by 16, d) Jasmin Ouschan was already one of the world's best 9ball and 14.1 players at 16, e) Kristina Tkach won three Eurotour events by 17. Most of the top female players were already doing a lot of damage on the tournament scene in their teens.

Once upon a time, it was America that produced the world's best female players, but now it is Asia. Much has been written of the superb training academies for women's pool players in Asia and how they keep mass producing superstar players. Asia has 34 of the Fargo Top 50 women and not even one of the other 16 is American born. There is little doubt in my mind that both Savannah and Sofia will change this, but if you ask me if I convinced that either will be a Top 20 player in the world down the road, I will say no. I expect that the Asian training machine to continue producing the giants of the game with a sizable contingent from Europe, but for now, I'm not convinced that America is going to produce its share of the world's best women players. Of course, it is quite possible I am wrong here and I will be rooting for both Savannah and Sofia every step of the way.

To sum, I agree with you that Savannah is progressing, but I am in a position to compare that rate of progress to that of the many female teen phenoms that I have watched over fifty years. It is my considered opinion that Savannah's progress is slow compared to what I've seen from those that went on to be the giants of women's pool.

Of course, the bottom line here is that I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, so we'll see how it all develops.
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You repeat the same error you did before--comparing a handful of players at ages 16-19 to one at 15. You also mostly compare her 15-year-old accomplishments mostly to the handful of 770+ women players at those elder-teen years. There are a lot more than five players in the top-20, and you presented not one comparison at age-15.

I respect your experience, but to suggest a player who has gone from ~500 Fargo skill to nearly ~700 Fargo skill in the span of 2-3 years is progressing "modestly" is laughable.

Who knows where she'll end up, but if she continues she will definitely be a contender on the international stage.
 
Rocket354 said:
You repeat the same error you did before--comparing a handful of players at ages 16-19 to one at 15. You also mostly compare her 15-year-old accomplishments mostly to the handful of 770+ women players at those elder-teen years. There are a lot more than five players in the top-20, and you presented not one comparison at age-15.

I respect your experience, but to suggest a player who has gone from ~500 Fargo skill to nearly ~700 Fargo skill in the span of 2-3 years is progressing "modestly" is laughable.

Who knows where she'll end up, but if she continues she will definitely be a contender on the international stage.
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I can only compare Savannah to the teenaged women that I've gotten to watch. I only cited the credentials of those players with whom I'm most familiar and, yes, I saw every one of them up close in person. To be more precise, Savanah is 15.9 years old. My intent in recalling the credentials of the teen phenoms I've watched over the years and what they accomplished in their teens is to give some perspective to what the best teens tend to achieve in their teens. Perhaps Savannah can achieve what they achieved in her teens. We'll see.

Most of the players I mentioned won major titles by the age of 17, and if Savannah goes on to do the same, she belongs in the conversation with greatest teen phenoms of the past. My feeling is that she is not on a trajectory to accomplish such feats anytime soon, but maybe it will turn out that I am wrong. I hope I am wrong, because I'm dying to see an American woman join the ranks of the super-elite sooner rather than later.

To predict she will be a contender on the international stage is not a very strong statement. That can be said of anyone who is, based on Fargo, Top 25 in the world. The question every American is asking is whether she'll become one of the superstars of women's pro pool or, more specifically, one of the ones to beat at the majors. The Top 20, at present, are all Fargo 735+, but the Top 10 are all Fargo 759+. Savannah has a long way to go to catch any of them. Wishing her every possible success.
 
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mikepage said:
You've cited several good examples Stu.
An interesting contrast is Pia Blaeser, who as a 17, 18, 19, and 20 year old was performing in the 640-650 range, 30+ points below where Savannah and Sofia are now and about 80 points below a teenage Kristina Tkatch.

She did get a new sparring partner after that...
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Yes, good example. We'll see where all of this lands.
 
Rocket354 said:
Who knows where she'll end up, but if she continues she will definitely be a contender on the international stage.
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She had better break her bad habit of pouting, moping, and sulking when things don't go her way. Her mental game is still quite a ways behind the top women players, especially the Asian women.

I'd also like to see better sportsmanship out of her when she loses a match. Her handshake is not sincere in the least, and she never looks the victor in the eye during the shake.

Maybe in the next year or two she can mature to the point where she is not beating herself up after misses/bad positioning. We will see.

I wish her all the best. I hope my damaged heart holds out long enough for me to see her win a "big" one someday.
 
Maniac said:
She had better break her bad habit of pouting, moping, and sulking when things don't go her way. Her mental game is still quite a ways behind the top women players, especially the Asian women.

I'd also like to see better sportsmanship out of her when she loses a match. Her handshake is not sincere in the least, and she never looks the victor in the eye during the shake.

Maybe in the next year or two she can mature to the point where she is not beating herself up after misses/bad positioning. We will see.

I wish her all the best. I hope my damaged heart holds out long enough for me to see her win a "big" one someday.
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Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser
 
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