Myth or real - Stroke smoothness as a requisite for certain shots

Oikawa

Oikawa

Well-known member
My understanding is that for the CB's reaction after hitting it with the cue, all that matters is what the cue is doing at the moment of contact, within a few milliseconds(?) of the impact. Breaking down the components of the possible factors at impact (normalizing for the environment and the cue itself, I'm not talking about whether a shitty tip vs. good tip can execute certain shots), these would be point on CB (spin), power and angle of impact in 3D space. Simple enough, and makes sense.

However, the amount of times I've heard (mostly from local folks, but also at various online discussions) that certain shots can only be executed with a "smooth stroke", "good timing" or a "good follow-through", such that those shots are literally impossible without it, makes me wonder if there's any truth behind it, or if its just a false belief that has evolved over time from the fact that good timing is very useful in many other aspects, and that great players who make great shots often also have great timing.

Does anyone here know any science behind this, does the timing/smoothness/delivery etc. whatever you want to call it really affect the range of possible shots that can be executed? What I am absolutely not disputing is that timing aids in consistency, that is true. An extreme spin shot is definitely more likely to be made with a smooth delivery, but can all the shots be executed even one time with a bad one? That is the question I'm wondering.

My own experience definitely supports that this is a myth, what do you all think?
 
Oikawa said:
My understanding is that for the CB's reaction after hitting it with the cue, all that matters is what the cue is doing at the moment of contact, within a few milliseconds(?) of the impact. Breaking down the components of the possible factors at impact (normalizing for the environment and the cue itself, I'm not talking about whether a shitty tip vs. good tip can execute certain shots), these would be point on CB (spin), power and angle of impact in 3D space. Simple enough, and makes sense.

However, the amount of times I've heard (mostly from local folks, but also at various online discussions) that certain shots can only be executed with a "smooth stroke", "good timing" or a "good follow-through", such that those shots are literally impossible without it, makes me wonder if there's any truth behind it, or if its just a false belief that has evolved over time from the fact that good timing is very useful in many other aspects, and that great players who make great shots often also have great timing.

Does anyone here know any science behind this, does the timing/smoothness/delivery etc. whatever you want to call it really affect the range of possible shots that can be executed? What I am absolutely not disputing is that timing aids in consistency, that is true. An extreme spin shot is definitely more likely to be made with a smooth delivery, but can all the shots be executed even one time with a bad one? That is the question I'm wondering.

My own experience definitely supports that this is a myth, what do you all think?
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't matter except that it DOES matter. Yes, it only matters what happens at the point of contact; however, everything done before and after contact is what determines the consistency of what happens at contact.

It will be different things for different people that gives them the best consistency of stroke, but there are certain things that are almost always necessary.

Acceleration at point of contact is one of them. If you're decelerating at point of contact, the balls just aren't going to react predictably.

If you're bridging at the cue's pivot point, you can get away with all sorts of crap, some of which was actually taught as what to do in the past. One of those things is swiping. swiping left or right while stroking for side spin. It's DEFINITELY not what you want to do to have the most consistent shooting, but it can work.

If you want to get into the weeds of it, just let me know. I can talk about this stuff for hours.
 
Jaden said:
No, it doesn't matter except that it DOES matter. Yes, it only matters what happens at the point of contact; however, everything done before and after contact is what determines the consistency of what happens at contact.

It will be different things for different people that gives them the best consistency of stroke, but there are certain things that are almost always necessary.

Acceleration at point of contact is one of them. If you're decelerating at point of contact, the balls just aren't going to react predictably.

If you're bridging at the cue's pivot point, you can get away with all sorts of crap, some of which was actually taught as what to do in the past. One of those things is swiping. swiping left or right while stroking for side spin. It's DEFINITELY not what you want to do to have the most consistent shooting, but it can work.

If you want to get into the weeds of it, just let me know. I can talk about this stuff for hours.
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I tried to be clear about emphasizing that I am not talking about consistency, but the absolute limit of what is even possible, I don't disagree with you one bit about the consistency part.

Put in another way, I am not trying to ask about whether good timing helps in consistency (it does), I am asking on a more theoretical level if certain shots are literally impossible with bad timing, because this is what many people have claimed to me in real life and I've disagreed with them.
 
My thoughts on this are that it matters not one iota. Shot success depends solely on speed of the cue tip at impact, direction of the cue tip at impact, and precise placement of the cue tip on the cue ball.

Now, what DOES matter is the stroke. A smooth stroke, with good timing, good acceleration, good tip placement, and sending the cue tip exactly down the intended shot line, is much more conducive to successfully incorporating all these things into every shot consistently.
 
dquarasr said:
My thoughts on this are that it matters not one iota. Shot success depends solely on speed of the cue tip at impact, direction of the cue tip at impact, and precise placement of the cue tip on the cue ball.

Now, what DOES matter is the stroke. A smooth stroke, with good timing, good acceleration, good tip placement, and sending the cue tip exactly down the intended shot line, is much more conducive to successfully incorporating all these things into every shot consistently.
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I agree with everything else you said except that the question doesn't matter, for me it's an interesting question mostly due to the fact that many people (in my experience, mostly mid-level players but also some 600-700 fargo ones) tend to believe the opposite of what I am claiming.
 
Smooth stroke or whatever is about consistency. I know I've personally shot something absolutely shitty and it still went in in spite of myself.

If a shot can be made 9/10 with a smooth stroke it might be made 2/10 with something wonky because there is no consistency.
 
The science is simple. you want to accelerate as you hit the ball in order to get the most action of the CB, you can't do that by punching the ball because you actually slowing down at the contact point. Punching the ball is a way to kill the action and it's also a tool to master for certain shots.
 
This has already been covered pretty well but I'll try to combine the main points in one place. After tens of thousands of hours on pool tables I can tell you that few things are impossible for one shot. However, stroke and follow through go together with making some of these things happen.

Sorta like the swipe stroke. Some SOB taught me that when I was very young. I fought mightily to make it work for months! Fifty-five years later it still sneaks in. I try to never shoot with a finger or two on the bumper or the swipe is likely to sneak in! Nine times out of ten you swipe early or late to basically no effect from the swipe. Doing it early the tip hits the cue ball out of place but has the same result as if you had aimed the tip at that spot. Late gives no effect of course. The one time out of ten or less that you swipe with perfect timing you usually get something totally different than you wanted. Maybe one time in a hundred magic happens and Venom would be jealous. A cue ball can curve like a horseshoe with a perfect swipe. You can try for hours and not hit that perfect swipe though and you only get one chance in a game!

You are in a position that you are unlikely to be able to demonstrate to prove your claims. You aren't wrong that almost anything can happen for one shot, particularly a break. If you want something to work more consistently, your naysayers are right. I doubt the best in the world, artistic shooters, can swipe consistently enough to put it in their bag of tricks.

My opinion, you are right about not impossible for one shot, just extremely unlikely. Your naysayers have much better documentation than you do. If you built a very sophisticated robot you might be able to prove your point. Until then you are probably facing "can't be duplicated". You hear some wild stories from rodeo hands and real cowboys that work with livestock regularly. What almost all of these stories have in common is "can't be duplicated on demand".

I have seen things happen on ratty old tables that can't be duplicated on good equipment. I was hanging in a bar one day and saw a guy fire a ball in the side pocket of a seven footer . It went down just fine, only to pop up out of the other side pocket and stay on the playing surface. I filed it away for future reference. A day or two later I was playing a local hustler on that same table. The money ball was near the side pocket, went down to the corner. Far enough from the side pocket I could easily adjust the cue ball's path but the natural hit was dead center of that pocket that had flung the ball while I was watching. We were only playing for $500, OK even story telling I will have to make it five a game, and I played this guy pretty regularly killing time for small change. BAM! I fired the ball in at break speed. The cue ball went in the magic side pocket and popped out the other side. The guy I was playing tried to call it a scratch but I pointed out the house rule, play them as they lay. No way to dispute the cue ball was on the playing surface! I took the money.

Hu
 
Smoothness or whatever is really just a shorthand for having efficient acceleration on your stroke. Sudden or jerky acceleration affects the way you engage your muscles and usually means you are doing more work to achieve the same result. That can lead to more tension and a greater likelihood of engaging the grip or shoulder in ways you don’t want to. Efficient acceleration lets you generate the same cue speed with less effort, which improves accuracy and makes power easier to control.

While I saw you clarified that you aren’t asking about consistency, I don’t think you can fully separate it from this discussion. Basically any shot can be made as long as you generate enough cue speed and strike the cue ball in the right place, which I doubt anyone would disagree with. But when someone says one shot or another needs good timing or a smooth stroke, that is really just shorthand for saying that the shot requires a higher level of precision in both tip accuracy and cue speed to make consistently, which is exactly what efficient acceleration gives you.
 
Oikawa said:
My understanding is that for the CB's reaction after hitting it with the cue, all that matters is what the cue is doing at the moment of contact, within a few milliseconds(?) of the impact. Breaking down the components of the possible factors at impact (normalizing for the environment and the cue itself, I'm not talking about whether a shitty tip vs. good tip can execute certain shots), these would be point on CB (spin), power and angle of impact in 3D space. Simple enough, and makes sense.

However, the amount of times I've heard (mostly from local folks, but also at various online discussions) that certain shots can only be executed with a "smooth stroke", "good timing" or a "good follow-through", such that those shots are literally impossible without it, makes me wonder if there's any truth behind it, or if its just a false belief that has evolved over time from the fact that good timing is very useful in many other aspects, and that great players who make great shots often also have great timing.

Does anyone here know any science behind this, does the timing/smoothness/delivery etc. whatever you want to call it really affect the range of possible shots that can be executed? What I am absolutely not disputing is that timing aids in consistency, that is true. An extreme spin shot is definitely more likely to be made with a smooth delivery, but can all the shots be executed even one time with a bad one? That is the question I'm wondering.

My own experience definitely supports that this is a myth, what do you all think?
Click to expand...
No myth.
Might be a wives tale, but I'd need documentation proving it. Seen too many examples of this very thing over the years.
 
Oikawa said:
My understanding is that for the CB's reaction after hitting it with the cue, all that matters is what the cue is doing at the moment of contact
Click to expand...
Yep - angle, spot & speed (ASS).

Oikawa said:
However, the amount of times I've heard (mostly from local folks, but also at various online discussions) that certain shots can only be executed with a "smooth stroke", "good timing" or a "good follow-through", such that those shots are literally impossible without it, makes me wonder if there's any truth behind it
Click to expand...
All of that matters, but only for delivering the cue to the cue ball at the correct Angle, Spot and Speed.

pj
chgo
 
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skor said:
The science is simple. you want to accelerate as you hit the ball in order to get the most action of the CB, you can't do that by punching the ball because you actually slowing down at the contact point. Punching the ball is a way to kill the action and it's also a tool to master for certain shots.
Click to expand...
We've all heard the expression "gotta poke it not stroke it."
 
boogieman said:
Smooth stroke or whatever is about consistency. I know I've personally shot something absolutely shitty and it still went in in spite of myself.

If a shot can be made 9/10 with a smooth stroke it might be made 2/10 with something wonky because there is no consistency.
Click to expand...

Patrick Johnson said:
Yep - angle, spot & speed (ASS).


All of that matters, but only for delivering the cue to the cue ball at the correct Angle, Spot and Speed.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

The forces one develops and tries to perfect as a player don't exist in a vacuum.
Straight is easy to remember. Inertia is hard to forget.
Why this matters is: the more complicated your launch sequence, the more stuff that can be influenced to go awry.
Further, the closer to perfection you are, that which can be influenced will have less wiggle room and maybe negligible effect towards failure.
 
Some things to think about, but not related to the exact question....

At a Eurotour event they put slo-mo cameras and such on about 20 top players and measured a bunch of things. A major result was that for all of the players shooting standard shots -- not break shots -- the tip hit the ball at near zero acceleration. The cue was, in effect, coasting through the cue ball.

The theory says that this timing will also be the least effort to accomplish the speed/spin required for a shot. I think it is very difficult or impossible to consciously teach this timing and that the players have simply learned the best/easiest way to hit the ball by years of practice.

Also....

Some say that you have to have a certain strength of grip for some shots. It turns out that that human flesh is so much softer than wood, CF, and even the tip, that during the actual tip/ball contact, the hand is not really involved in the collision. This has been demonstrated with high speed video.

In fact, the original Iron Willie design was broken. The grip was very, very firm. So firm that most of the robot arm was added to the weight of the stick. Iron Willie was redesigned to have a properly compliant grip, I've been told.
 
I don't know anymore about "Proper Technique." Seriously, take a look at some 'Busty" videos. He pulls the cue stick all the way back through his bridge and almost loses the stick and can followthrough with precise accuracy. So, it's about what works for you IMO.
 
Baby Huey said:
I don't know anymore about "Proper Technique." Seriously, take a look at some 'Busty" videos. He pulls the cue stick all the way back through his bridge and almost loses the stick and can followthrough with precise accuracy. So, it's about what works for you IMO.
Click to expand...
“Proper technique” works for the most people.

pj
chgo
 
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