Yapp’s Controversial Tournament-Winning Shot in the 8-Ball World Championship … Was it a Foul?

Stu it's likely because snooker balls are smaller/lighter therefore their thinking is along those lines.
And the above, AZ had a separate thread about that bad call also.
Europeans are learning the hard way, as most all do in life to improve.
 
sjm said:
... Why are referees that lack the core knowledge to do the job being certified by WPA? Why does it seem that referees getting the most noteworthy assignments in pool are the ones making the most errors? Why doesn't WPA care about the precipitous decline in performance of referees in pool? ...
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Training referees is a hard job. In the particular case of The Pongers Push, the shot is rare and extreme, and it could easily have never been included explicitly in whatever training the referee received. It is one thing to know the words of the rule and a very different thing to see an extreme case of it in action and be required to make the correct call quickly.

As far as judging good/bad hits by the action of the balls, that's also hard and complicated. Many players don't understand how to apply two successive cases of the 90-degree rule, and that applies to some refs as well.

But I have heard that some officials are not interested in the details of how the physics works, even to the level of being able to correctly judge the WC8B shot and they do not see why referees should learn such things. Just make a call -- no need to think. That's a problem.

I've seen several "Good hit?" posts on Facebook. The votes are often split 50-50 even though the call looks obvious to me. When the correct voters comment about why they voted that way, they are usually wrong or confused.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I've seen several "Good hit?" posts on Facebook. The votes are often split 50-50 even though the call looks obvious to me. When the correct voters comment about why they voted that way, they are usually wrong or confused.
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You make a good point here. Also, the confidence of the posters is fascinating.
The other problem with the bad calls is the confusion it causes among us amateurs. I have an ongoing debate within my league on what is legal when the cue ball is frozen to the object ball.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Training referees is a hard job. In the particular case of The Pongers Push, the shot is rare and extreme, and it could easily have never been included explicitly in whatever training the referee received. It is one thing to know the words of the rule and a very different thing to see an extreme case of it in action and be required to make the correct call quickly.

As far as judging good/bad hits by the action of the balls, that's also hard and complicated. Many players don't understand how to apply two successive cases of the 90-degree rule, and that applies to some refs as well.

But I have heard that some officials are not interested in the details of how the physics works, even to the level of being able to correctly judge the WC8B shot and they do not see why referees should learn such things. Just make a call -- no need to think. That's a problem.

I've seen several "Good hit?" posts on Facebook. The votes are often split 50-50 even though the call looks obvious to me. When the correct voters comment about why they voted that way, they are usually wrong or confused.
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Well stated, and so true.
 
bpeacock said:
You make a good point here. Also, the confidence of the posters is fascinating.
The other problem with the bad calls is the confusion it causes among us amateurs. I have an ongoing debate within my league on what is legal when the cue ball is frozen to the object ball.
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This came up just last night as I was warming up for a small weekly tournaments. Two players were playing a friendly warm up game and one shot straight through a frozen ball. The other was surprised and asked if that was legal. First player said yes and then both asked me.

I explained that it was legal, and the rare push with an extended contact issue. And told him that Dr Dave has a newish video directly on this issue.

But I also said that unfortunately some referees are going to get it wrong and if they aren’t confident in the referee it might be safer to thin off the ball. I wish it weren’t the case but it’s probably the safest approach.
 
GideonF said:
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But I also said that unfortunately some referees are going to get it wrong and if they aren’t confident in the referee it might be safer to thin off the ball. I wish it weren’t the case but it’s probably the safest approach.
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You can ask the ref about what the frozen ball rule is. If he acts puzzled and confused that you could even ask about such a thing, good luck.

Even if you play the thin hit, maybe he is playing by the Ultimate Pool rules and you have to shoot away, or by Derby City rules and you must jack up.
 
Bob Jewett said:
You can ask the ref about what the frozen ball rule is. If he acts puzzled and confused that you could even ask about such a thing, good luck.

Even if you play the thin hit, maybe he is playing by the Ultimate Pool rules and you have to shoot away, or by Derby City rules and you must jack up.
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The first paragraph is excellent advice. I will definitely try that.

As to the second, thankfully at least in my area neither of those have surfaced.
 
This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I haven’t seen it. It’s obvious the general public and even the pool playing public, have a difficult time conceding to the good hit/bad hit criteria. Predator/WPA and MR are trying to appeal to the (uninformed) masses. Maybe they have decided, if it’s not an obvious foul, don’t call it and let the opponent or the shooter challenge the call. Then they go to replay and conversation, to make certain they get it right. Casual fans don’t want to watch referees, in any sport, looking at replays. It isn’t casual fan friendly and pool needs numbers.


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sjm said:
I wasn't watching the match, so this is my first look at the final shot.

While I figured this was a foul based on cue ball direction, I don't think it was as obvious as the Capito foul vs Lechner in 2025. It's bizarre that referees don't understand the principles governing good and bad hits when two object balls are near each other. So often, cue ball direction and/or speed will make the call obvious, but referees need better training. In the end, the referee clearly lacked the needed understanding to call a foul, and given this, could not logically call a foul here. I view this as a "lack of knowledge" situation, not a "grossly mistaken call" situation. Based on the referee's knowledge, the right call was made. Still, referees who don't have the knowledge to judge these situations should not get the nod in the final of a world championship.
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Just as it’s done these days in most all major sporting events, you can’t argue with technology. There’s no reason they can’t do the same thing we do in our weekly 9 ball tournaments. Once the opponent or the shooter requests for the shot to be judged which they should, with any simple smart phone, the referee or TD simply holds a smart phone over the shot and records the close up cue ball / object ball contact in slow motion video. The camera doesn’t lie.
 
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ChrisinNC said:
Just as it’s done these days in most all major sporting events, you can’t argue with technology. There’s no reason they can’t do the same thing we do in our weekly 9 ball tournaments. Once the opponent or the shooter requests for the shot to be judged which they should, with any simple smart phone, the referee or TD simply holds a smart phone over the shot and records the close up cue ball / object ball contact in slow motion video. The camera doesn’t lie.
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I agree in terms of getting the call right. The problem is that this is bad TV. You have a ref (or the ref and the head ref) looking at images on a smart phone we can’t see. It’s like the old days of NFL replays when the ref would go under the hood and look at footage the viewers don’t have.

Now if they had a way to have the smart phone recording shown to the TV (or stream) audience, then at least we would see what they are seeing and be able to understand the call.

Finally, while I agree that generally the camera doesn’t lie, it also sometimes doesn’t capture the instant of contact, in which case we are back to judging based on ball reactions.
 
Scratch85 said:
This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I haven’t seen it. It’s obvious the general public and even the pool playing public, have a difficult time conceding to the good hit/bad hit criteria.
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Sometimes I feel like Dr Dave and Bob Jewett and other people who understand the rules are trying to sweep back the tide of ignorance. It’s tough work and they are combating decades of misinformation. (Like how many league players want to call a foul if you adjust the CB with BIH using your tip. When was the last time - if ever - that was a foul in WPA or BCA rules?)

And bad calls on TV or streamed matches just make it worse, because you will get people who assume the ruling is correct.

Fortunately Dr Dave is doing a great job of getting videos out there to address the errors.
 
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