WORLD 10 BALL CHAMPIONSHIP (6-10 Sep 2021), Las Vegas, 9ft, Winner $35K

[spartan]

I couldn't agree less. If both 9 ball and 10 ball are played professionally, and as world championships, then the games need to be different. Otherwise why play both games?

It isn't so simple.
If I recall, there is some history of "pool war" between 9b and 10b proponents. 9b was pool game of choice in international events until 10b came along to gatecrash the 9b party. Pros supposedly prefer 10ball couple decades ago so promoter/players push for world 10b championship. If I am not mistaken, that was one of reasons that Matchroom dropped out of promoting w9b when first WPA W10B event appeared. Also maybe why Matchroom used name "Pool" instead of 9b. Matchroom philosophy is single discipline-only 9 ball while other promoters believed in diversification/differentiation philosophy promoting multiple disciplines (9b, 10b, 8b etc).
W10B died off in early 2010s. Manny Pacquiao revived w10b for one year in 2015 until CSI revived it couple of years ago.
CSI/Predator started 10b tours US Pro Billiard/World Pro Billiards tours this year indirectly competing with Matchroom for slice of the peanuts pool audience market. Right now, they both can coexist since there are still not enough world class events so players can still play both 10b and 9b. Snooker world tour has around 20 events per year. Matchroom will keep increasing number of 9b events and Predator is aggressively adding tonnes of 10b events from this year. What if one of them reach 20 events soon? Then we may see both fighting for players or clauses added to prevent players from playing in another promoter's events. More events is good thing for fans and players though

 

[Bob Jewett]

Any chance Matchroom and WPA bring back the World 8 Ball championship?

If I had to guess, it would be that there is zero chance of that. Matchroom seems to have settled on 9 ball as the single form of pool that they are going to promote.

A large problem with 8 ball is that much of the world plays/knows the very similar game of English 8 ball. It's played on a smaller table with smaller balls.

 

[CaleAYS]

It's easy for people to second guess Chua after seeing Oi make the ball and run out. Now if Oi had messed up on that shot everyone would be saying how smart Chua was to pass it back, right.

You know pool fans all too well sir . I gave that situation some thought last night. Still surprised Chua didn’t attack but I don’t think it was a mistake not to. It was definitely gambling with either decision.

 

[SBC]

This stream is horrific.

I couldn't agree less. If both 9 ball and 10 ball are played professionally, and as world championships, then the games need to be different. Otherwise why play both games?

Called shot called safe 10 ball had real.potential....turns out even pros like slop.

 

[HawaiianEye]

As one of the originators of the Bigfoot Ten Ball Challenge at DCC, I have strong opinions about the game of Ten Ball. We played the Challenge using all the regular 9-Ball Texas Express rules and it seemed to work out pretty well that way. Very few player complaints and the fans enjoyed the matches.

After watching this event, my opinion has changed somewhat. I am now a believer that Ten Ball should have it's own set of rules and not necessarily follow 9-Ball in the way it is played. I think I would still favor a "golden" ten ball rule, where making the ten on the break is a win. Just because it's so hard to do and we rarely see it done. Playing call shot is probably a good idea, since it puts a premium on good play and removes a lot of the luck factor. I'm on the fence about the ten always being the last ball made. I have always been in favor of allowing the two way shot, but seeing how the matches played out here, my opinion may be shifting. Ten ball last takes away all the situations where the ten sets up for an easy billiard or combo after the break shot, getting rid of all these "gift" games. Now you have to work your way through each rack to win the game.

What I saw here were a lot of safety battles that tested the skills of these great players. Whether to kick or jump also came into play quite often. In today's era the top players are often laying down lock up safeties that take away the jump shot and force their opponent to kick at the ball.

All and all I liked what I saw with the rules being used. Every match was a test of the complete skill set of each player. One thing that I question is the use of the 30 second shot clock for the TV table only. I think promoters need to bite the bullet and put a shot clock on all tables. Some matches were intolerably long without it, with players tanking for two to three minutes on shot after shot. Shades of Straight Pool and we don't need another dose of that.

The rules need to be the same for all matches, TV table or not.

It causes people to get out of rhythm.

I am for a shot clock, but only if it is for every table of every match.

 

[Swighey]

Matchroom is a promoter not a sponsor.

Actually it's both. It bankrolls/underwrites tournaments. I think it's fair to say that Matchroom both promotes and sponsors 9 ball tournaments and that that is more important than worrying about semantics.

 

[Swighey]

This is a case where what the majority of the pros want does not serve the game's best interests. Very few pros want a shot clock, either. Most of them still want rack your own in all situations. Most of them would rather not have a dress code, too. Rest assured, the soft break had many advocates among the pro players back in 2000-02, as well, but event producers learned that the fans didn't like it.

100% agree that what the shoutiest pros want isn't necessarily the best thing for the game. Rack your own looks amateur (and it is, in my opinion) and has no place in a televised event that is trying to promote and advance the game. Dress code - yep we all prefer to wear what we feel relaxed in but I think the pros do buy in to the fact that a dress code is a concession that has to made if they are on TV and playing for free or added money. I'm not convinced that the fans as a whole didn't like the soft break. I don't recall them ever being asked for feedback.

 

[skogstokig]

Kaci interview

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=154526956850319

huge props to joey ryan, mike and the other live streaming guys. i hope they can set up shop in atlantic city too

 

[HawaiianEye]

100% agree that what the shoutiest pros want isn't necessarily the best thing for the game. Rack your own looks amateur (and it is, in my opinion) and has no place in a televised event that is trying to promote and advance the game. Dress code - yep we all prefer to wear what we feel relaxed in but I think the pros do buy in to the fact that a dress code is a concession that has to made if they are on TV and playing for free or added money. I'm not convinced that the fans as a whole didn't like the soft break. I don't recall them ever being asked for feedback.

Inexperienced fans like to see players making difficult shots and running tables.

Professional players do not make up the fan base.

Today’s game is not conducive to creating a product that would draw and gain the attention of larger audiences which are mostly made up of people who are not avid pool players themselves.

There needs to be some excitement other than the game itself, too.

Shot clocks create excitement.

Players with “personalities” create excitement.

 

[Swighey]

Inexperienced fans like to see players making difficult shots and running tables.

Professional players do not make up the fan base.

Today’s game is not conducive to creating a product that would draw and gain the attention of larger audiences which are mostly made up of people who are not avid pool players themselves.

There needs to be some excitement other than the game itself, too.

Shot clocks create excitement.

Players with “personalities” create excitement.

I disagree. The game is totally conducive to creating a product that is marketable to a larger audience. Matchroom proved that in the 00s but the spineless WPA got jealous. Let's hope they prove it again.

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

Any chance Matchroom and WPA bring back the World 8 Ball championship?

Hopefully Matchroom will have nothing to do with it when it does return. Most likely they won't as they have made their marketing play by focusing on 9 Ball. The WPA 8 Ball was on the calendar for last year I believe to be held in Malaysia. For obvious reasons it didn't happen.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Hopefully Matchroom will have nothing to do with it when it does return. Most likely they won't as they have made their marketing play by focusing on 9 Ball. The WPA 8 Ball was on the calendar for last year I believe to be held in Malaysia. For obvious reasons it didn't happen.

Regular 8-ball is too easy for the pros.

Change it to last-pocket and it may make it a little better.

 

[sjm]

Regular 8-ball is too easy for the pros.

Change it to last-pocket and it may make it a little better.

For action matches, sure, but the fans would never buy into last pocket, even though it's an excellent game with an end game that can be very interesting.

FYI, Irving Crane said the same thing as you about 8-ball,that it was too easy a game for the most elite pros. I have to admit, though, that I went to two different World 8-ball Championships in the 1990s and enjoyed it very much.

The "take what you make" version makes eight ball harder, as it is often a disadvantage to have to take the set that has fewer balls remaining on the table, but if the player making a ball on the break has the choice of stripes or solids, the game is too easy on anything but super-tough equipment. That's why Chinese eight ball is and will likely remain the hot version of eight ball at present.

 

[HawaiianEye]

For action matches, sure, but the fans would never buy into last pocket, even though it's an excellent game with an end game that can be very interesting.

FYI, Irving Crane said the same thing as you about 8-ball,that it was too easy a game for the most elite pros. I have to admit, though, that I went to two different World 8-ball Championships in the 1990s and enjoyed it very much.

The "take what you make" version makes eight ball harder, as it is often a disadvantage to have to take the set that has fewer balls remaining on the table, but if the player making a ball on the break has the choice of stripes or solids, the game is too easy on anything but super-tough equipment. That's why Chinese eight ball is and will likely remain the hot version of eight ball at present.

I always play that you take what you make on the break.

 

[jay helfert]

Know where your coming from, Jay, and you've made your point extremely well.

As it is and probably always will be a fringe game in pro events, there's not too much harm done if ten ball rules look ridiculous to the fans, who play rotation games but are used to a) no call-shot, b) money ball counts as long as there is a good hit on the lowest numbered ball, and c) golden breaks count. The absence of these features of ten ball as played this past week are a turn off for this fan, but nobody can argue that this version of ten ball is anything less than a great test of skill at pro level.

Every rule change that makes the game less recognizable to its current and potential fan base slightly disenfranchises those fans and is, therefore, as I see it, an impediment to popularizing and growing our sport.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. It's all good though if Matchroom creates a series of 9-Ball events and Predator does the same with Ten Ball. More tournaments for both the players and the fans that way. Competition is a good thing imo. I happen to think that over time the viewing public will be drawn to Ten Ball, at least as much as they like 9-Ball or even moreso. Real sports fans want to see the best players playing under the most difficult conditions. I.e. The U.S. Open, Masters and British Open in golf and the different surfaces used in the tennis majors. I've already seen that 9-Ball has become too easy for the best pool players and there isn't much drama in watching guys run out nearly every rack. The only saving grace is using Alternate Break to give the other player a chance at the table. Ten Ball, especially with the more strict rules used this week is not quite so simple. More often than not players were coming up empty on the break and strategic decision making became very important. To push out and where, to shoot and play safe and where as well. Similar situations happened frequently during the course of play and I found it very interesting to see how the players handled their choices in such situations. In my mind there is far more skill required in Ten Ball, and as a fan of the game I like that. And yes, I even agree that alternate break is a good thing too. It's like passing the serve back and forth in tennis.

All credit to Matchroom for stepping up to the plate, but also big props to Predator for going their own way and not being afraid to compete against a sports giant. Predator is making a big play for the U.S. market and more power to them.

 

[Inaction]

Show the table during the break, and not focus on the player or their technique would be an improvement for the future.

 

[sjm]

Real sports fans want to see the best players playing under the most difficult conditions.

It's here where we disagree, Jay, although I agree that this is what many of the true diehard pool fans want to see.

I believe that what draws us to sports is the chance to see people playing the same games that we played growing up, but at the highest possible skill level. At least for the American fans, we've all tried baseball, basketball and football, and most of us have tried golf and tennis at some point. Few of us have tried hockey, which is why the NHL will never be as big in America as MLB, NFL, NBA, pro golf or pro tennis.

In the case of baseball, football, basketball, tennis and golf, the pros play the same game we've all played but at a higher level of skill --- we already know the basic terminology, the rules and the strategy and we all know how difficult the games are. When it comes to rotation games at pool, only a few know ten ball and its newfangled set of rules. I've met countless nine ball players who have never even heard of ten ball.

The theory that pool fans can be drawn in to a new pool game just because it is a great test of skill, from my point of view, was disproven by the Bonus Ball experiment. All of us who watched Bonus Ball respected it as an interesting game requiring extraordinary skills, and some, quite accurately, suggested that Bonus Ball combined rotation game skills with straight pool skills. On the other hand, Chinese eight ball has given the world a game with which it is already very familiar, and the Chinese eight ball experiment must be viewed as a success.

Unfortunately, what I've seen is that if you give people a game they don't know, getting a large fan base to tune in will be a long and difficult struggle.

All that said, this is a matter of opinion, and it would be nice if you were right and the potential future fans can be taught to love ten ball.

Finally, it's never that easy for me to have an online debate with AZB's very best poster, but I'm glad we're able to debate in a tone of mutual respect.

 

[gxman]

Kaci has a lot of gamble in him.

I would like to see him challenge SVB 10b magic rack. Just race to 21 to bring the pressure on.

Biado and Kaci probably even. Maybe an edge for Kaci for his break.

 

[sjm]

Kaci has a lot of gamble in him.

I would like to see him challenge SVB 10b magic rack. Just race to 21 to bring the pressure on.

Biado and Kaci probably even. Maybe an edge for Kaci for his break.

Carlo Biado and Klenti Kaci played an action ten ball race to 21 at Steinway Billiards in what I believe was 2019. Kaci ran out to a huge lead (10-1, I think), but Biado stormed back for what I believe was a 21-18 victory. Hence, as you suggest, Kaci vs Biado would be a great match.

I'm not so sure that Kaci is ready for Shane quite yet.

 

[HawaiianEye]

It's here where we disagree, Jay, although I agree that this is what many of the true diehard pool fans want to see.

I believe that what draws us to sports is the chance to see people playing the same games that we played growing up, but at the highest possible skill level. At least for the American fans, we've all tried baseball, basketball and football, and most of us have tried golf and tennis at some point. Few of us have tried hockey, which is why the NHL will never be as big in America as MLB, NFL, NBA, pro golf or pro tennis.

In the case of baseball, football, basketball, tennis and golf, the pros play the same game we've all played but at a higher level of skill --- we already know the basic terminology, the rules and the strategy and we all know how difficult the games are. When it comes to rotation games at pool, only a few know ten ball and its newfangled set of rules. I've met countless nine ball players who have never even heard of ten ball.

The theory that pool fans can be drawn in to a new pool game just because it is a great test of skill, from my point of view, was disproven by the Bonus Ball experiment. All of us who watched Bonus Ball respected it as an interesting game requiring extraordinary skills, and some, quite accurately, suggested that Bonus Ball combined rotation game skills with straight pool skills. On the other hand, Chinese eight ball has given the world a game with which it is already very familiar, and the Chinese eight ball experiment must be viewed as a success.

Unfortunately, what I've seen is that if you give people a game they don't know, getting a large fan base to tune in will be a long and difficult struggle.

All that said, this is a matter of opinion, and it would be nice if you were right and the potential future fans can be taught to love ten ball.

Finally, it's never that easy for me to have an online debate with AZB's very best poster, but I'm glad we're able to debate in a tone of mutual respect.

I agree with you.

The average fan does not appreciate the level of skill it takes to play on super tight tables using unfamiliar rules.

They want to see high-level players playing on the same tables they play on and using the same rules.

That is what they can identify with.

I have played for over half a century and it even bores me to watch today’s tournaments.

I used to hate playing one-pocket, but I played it because it was a good money game for higher stakes.

I hated watching it more than playing it.

However, it has become my favorite pool game to watch now because it hasn’t totally transformed into a different game like most of the other games have.