WAXGATE and the Effects of Slick Cloth and Waxed Balls

sjm said:
Dave, is Yapp's comment that it is virtually impossible for the cue ball to play slicker at the end of a long match than it did at the beginning reasonable?
Click to expand...

I think that is a reasonable statement (assuming the balls aren't being changed), unless temperature and humidity were changing dramatically during the match. Regardless, to know if the statement is appropriate or not, I would obviously need to see examples of the shots he is comparing at the end of a match to similar shots at the beginning.
 
dr_dave said:
... unless it was sprayed or wiped down before play with a wax or lubricant like Silicone spray.
... or unless the balls were also polished before play with an unusual cleaner or wax.

I did a video many years ago showing how what your clean the balls with has a big effect:

Click to expand...
Dave, you mention in video, that conditions were "very slick" and "much more than typical." Is your judgement that wax or cleaner was used in that match with Chua vs Yi?
 
KingSamurai said:
Dave, you mention in video, that conditions were "very slick" and "much more than typical." Is your judgement that wax or cleaner was used in that match with Chua vs Yi?
Click to expand...

To judge, I would need to study ball reactions from matches on the same table before the Chua-Yi match, which I have not done. If all matches on that table had the same reactions, I would guess the cloth was just very slick and the balls were highly polished or waxed or had some sort of other coating or surface finish which was persistent.
 
This is not a NEW event. Using "slickers" on the balls and cushions has been going on for at least my 65 years playing pool. Talcum and Baby powders have been around forever. In the pool room I grew up in, it was common practice to slick (juice) down the rails with powder on your hands prior to shooting difficult shots laying close to the rail and passing the side pocket towards the corner. Some players used to have powder in a towel and would act like they were wiping down the balls as they laid in the ball rack prior to racking. That would create ball sliding on the rails thus making it easier to make balls on the break. This was when we would self rack. Conversely some smart players would use a damp towel when racking the balls to "clean them" but really they were wet such that they went nowhere when broken. The light moisture on them slowed them down. Lastly having access to the air conditioning could raise or lower the humidity so the table conditions changed dramatically and only you would know it. Having a friendly house man always helped. Is this cheating? I remember when Lou Brock was attempting to break the stolen base record and teams would wet down the base path excessively so that Lou couldn't get to his top speed so quickly. MLB had to step in on that one.
 
Baby Huey said:
This is not a NEW event. Using "slickers" on the balls and cushions has been going on for at least my 65 years playing pool. Talcum and Baby powders have been around forever. In the pool room I grew up in, it was common practice to slick (juice) down the rails with powder on your hands prior to shooting difficult shots laying close to the rail and passing the side pocket towards the corner. Some players used to have powder in a towel and would act like they were wiping down the balls as they laid in the ball rack prior to racking. That would create ball sliding on the rails thus making it easier to make balls on the break. This was when we would self rack. Conversely some smart players would use a damp towel when racking the balls to "clean them" but really they were wet such that they went nowhere when broken. The light moisture on them slowed them down. Lastly having access to the air conditioning could raise or lower the humidity so the table conditions changed dramatically and only you would know it. Having a friendly house man always helped. Is this cheating? I remember when Lou Brock was attempting to break the stolen base record and teams would wet down the base path excessively so that Lou couldn't get to his top speed so quickly. MLB had to step in on that one.
Click to expand...
I agree with you, and I dont think it is any form of cheating at all. There can only be so much "variations" to the game to make it interesting. If you are inexperienced....then you are an inferior player, period.

I picked up my cuestick when I was very young and I knew many people calling "trick shots" a trickshot because under "normal circumstances" you can not replicate. It includes wiping the Cueball with Talc powder, or wet towels as you said. Especially in Phillipine and rural areas, people Hustle with tables full of Talc Powder.

The local kid can beat a pro, does that mean the local kid is better when playing pro conditions ? Of course not. This is what we are all saying , There can only be 1 king in the forest. If it is your forest, then you are the King. If it is your conditions then you are the King

Honestly, with all of that said. I am pretty sure most players from other slow growing countries are at a much more disadvantages when playing in "Pro World Tour Conditions". Because most players from those countries "do not have the luxuries" to play on such "Luxerious conditions"....slick brand new cloth, fresh smelling Rails, perfect Humidity, ideal AC condition, and quiet room.....etc
 
fastone371 said:
You don't think throw and knowledge of throw is important??
Click to expand...
Is we talkin bout baseball now??🤣
dr_dave said:
To judge, I would need to study ball reactions from matches on the same table before the Chua-Yi match, which I have not done. If all matches on that table had the same reactions, I would guess the cloth was just very slick and the balls were highly polished or waxed or had some sort of other coating or surface finish which was persistent.
Click to expand...
You ducked that like a seasoned politician. If you ever tire of this game, there's always public office Doc!!👍🏻
 
bdaumueller said:
I assume you mean by tournament staff or refs not individual players and balls are treated the same for all matches.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. The issue is the targeted blindsiding of individual players as well as personal preferences. Maybe (unlikely) if players get accustomed to a likelihood of varying conditions they'll check first and have a viable approach by lag time. Otherwise, as long as the alterations are consistent, global announcement - on the poster for instance, should be sufficient notice.
 
Pool is the only cue sport where the shooter gets to handle the cueball frequently. Once in awhile in Snooker like the opening break shot and pocket scratches (which is rare) where the shooter can handle the cueball and never in Carom games. So, this can and does lead to the accusations of altering the cueball. Gabe Owen will place the cueball in his pocket and rub it every time he has ball in hand. This is his cleaning method. I also use this as well. It polishes the ball some and removes chalk marks. It could be perceived as altering the ball but it isn't. So it'll hard to enforce waxing or non-waxing rules in tournament play? We will see how this plays out.
 
Baby Huey said:
Pool is the only cue sport where the shooter gets to handle the cueball frequently. Once in awhile in Snooker like the opening break shot and pocket scratches (which is rare) where the shooter can handle the cueball and never in Carom games. So, this can and does lead to the accusations of altering the cueball. Gabe Owen will place the cueball in his pocket and rub it every time he has ball in hand. This is his cleaning method. I also use this as well. It polishes the ball some and removes chalk marks. It could be perceived as altering the ball but it isn't. So it'll hard to enforce waxing or non-waxing rules in tournament play? We will see how this plays out.
Click to expand...

In fully refereed tournaments it should be easy. Players cannot clean the CB (only the ref can), and players should only place the CB. It’s tougher if they don’t have a ref to clean the CB.
 
As long as the balls are cleaned the same for everyone, it shouldn't matter. Everyone is playing under the same conditions and will need to adjust accordingly.
Individual players tampering with the equipment is entirely different though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top