At what would you question “non obvious” call pocketing?

Kjackxon said:
In this case, my opponent is shooting the 10 ball into the corner pocket. The 15 ball is partially blocking the 10 ball. He calls out “10 ball”, at which point I ask which pocket. He tells me the corner pocket, then proceeds to completely miss the 10 ball. The cue ball caroms off the 15, then nudges the 10 ball into the pocket.
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By any "Call Shot" ruleset (not call all the detail bar rules, but rather... organized rules for professionals and amateurs like the WPA, BCAPL, and VNEA), then it was well within your right to clarify which ball they were playing since the 15-ball was in play. It was also within your right to ask them to clarify which pocket. So, they have at this point called ball and pocket. That fulfills your opponent's requirements for calling a non-obvious shot: ball and pocket. Provided he contacts his set of balls first, which in your explanation... he does.


Kjackxon said:
I asked him “Did you intentionally combo the 10 ball?” He replied “I call my ball and pocket - doesn’t matter how it got there.”
I didn’t argue, and I didn’t call him off the shot when he answered my first question.
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This is where you threw yourself into a state of confusion. It has no bearing if he intentionally combo'd the 10-ball or not. He fulfilled his requirement, and he doesn't have follow an intended path for the balls. This doesn't happen often, but when it does, you actually have no reason to ask if he intentionally did anything. He called the ball and pocket, and after he shot, the ball went into the pocket. He continues. You have no right to "call him off the shot," etc.

Is that clear?

The wording of "non-obvious shots" is exactly what happened to you. Your opponent was shooting a non-obvious shot, and you asked for clarification. A player should be calling ball and pocket any time he is shooting at a combo or carom, but he only needs to call the ball and pocket.
 
"Obvious" is different under WPA/WSR and CSI (BCAPL/USAPL) rules because they are written for different situations. The WSR rules assume that usually there is a referee or the players are more experienced. CSI is for situations that are not officiated and more chaotic and the players are more aggressive. That's the way I see it. At least CSI doesn't require patching the pocket for shots.

A year or so ago we saw a result of this difference in a pro 10-ball tournament under CSI rules when the 7(?) was sitting in the jaws with the 4 a short distance out. The player shot the completely obvious combination and had to give up the table when the opponent claimed the non-call. The call would not have been required under WSR.
 
Bob Jewett said:
"Obvious" is different under WPA/WSR and CSI (BCAPL/USAPL) rules because they are written for different situations. The WSR rules assume that usually there is a referee or the players are more experienced. CSI is for situations that are not officiated and more chaotic and the players are more aggressive. That's the way I see it. At least CSI doesn't require patching the pocket for shots.

A year or so ago we saw a result of this difference in a pro 10-ball tournament under CSI rules when the 7(?) was sitting in the jaws with the 4 a short distance out. The player shot the completely obvious combination and had to give up the table when the opponent claimed the non-call. The call would not have been required under WSR.
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For some reason this discussion reminds me of the chorus of this song from my youth.

 
that's why you shouldn't let a bunch of i don't want to say the word, make all kinds of rules different than the old standard ones.

best way to play all games is to not have call shot. except with a ref. and on tv for the viewers. just hit your ball you are required to hit first.
what flies is the luck of the game. equal for all.
and better players rarely get the benefit of it, as they make the shot they are shooting most times.

and if you are going to do call shot you need to always call the pocket, as obvious is a subjective term, and different from all peoples perspectives.
 
gregcantrall said:
Did you know Cocomo? 🤷‍♂️
His method was deception. Watching him like a hawk was required. He had multiple methods of pushing boundaries. One of which was to avoid the " is it frozen " look.
So yeah you gotta know Who you are playing. I prefer an honesty reputation. 🤷‍♂️
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Had the pleasure of playing him at a regional event once. He was the opposite of a sportsman or a gentleman.
 
Sheldon said:
Had the pleasure of playing him at a regional event once. He was the opposite of a sportsman or a gentleman.
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One of his incidents came playing in the White Spot weekly 9 ball tournament. He made the 8 and scratched. The rules we were playing by called for the 8 to be spotted. He retrieved the cueball and handed it to his opponent then sat down. .
The unreferee weekly tournament had the non shooting player doing referee duty. It was late in the tournament and the looser was to get 10 bucks. His opponent was laughing that he was making him shoot the 9 with ball in hand. So when he shot the 9 ball in Cocomo called foul
His call of foul was appealed to the tournament director.. His opponent was overwhelmed and flustered so I intercede and made the case for him by saying, "it was Cocomo that should have spotted the 8 ball." His opponent had struck the smallest ball on the table first so no foul. If he wanted the 8 ball spotted he should have done it himself. Management agreed and well we all knew Cocomo 🤷‍♂️.
Cocomo was so distraught at losing the call that he burned the $10 bill that he received for 4th place. He and I were uh never friends.
 
Kjackxon said:
Edit: Sorry about the title goof 🤔
The game is 8 ball call shot using standard rules.
In this case, my opponent is shooting the 10 ball into the corner pocket. The 15 ball is partially blocking the 10 ball. He calls out “10 ball”, at which point I ask which pocket. He tells me the corner pocket, then proceeds to completely miss the 10 ball. The cue ball caroms off the 15, then nudges the 10 ball into the pocket.

I asked him “Did you intentionally combo the 10 ball?” He replied “I call my ball and pocket - doesn’t matter how it got there.”
I didn’t argue, and I didn’t call him off the shot when he answered my first question.
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Sounds like he's played in a league and you are used to bar room rules. I'm used to bar room rules, but have played league players in the past who are the same way.
 
Kjackxon said:
Edit: Sorry about the title goof 🤔
The game is 8 ball call shot using standard rules. Obvious clear path shots need not to be called. Obstructed shots, banks, carom, and combinations must be (ball and pocket) called.

Backstory:
I’m in a match with an opponent, who gets upset when I asked what pocket he’s playing. He doesn’t call or point out his pockets, and typically assumes that I already know where he is shooting.
In this case, my opponent is shooting the 10 ball into the corner pocket. The 15 ball is partially blocking the 10 ball. He calls out “10 ball”, at which point I ask which pocket. He tells me the corner pocket, then proceeds to completely miss the 10 ball. The cue ball caroms off the 15, then nudges the 10 ball into the pocket.

I asked him “Did you intentionally combo the 10 ball?” He replied “I call my ball and pocket - doesn’t matter how it got there.”
I didn’t argue, and I didn’t call him off the shot when he answered my first question. It does bring up a point. Was I justified to have called the foul as he did not specify the combo? I know he call the ball and pocket. It’s just that the shot wasn’t obvious. When I miss my called ball, it’s ball in hand to my opponent no question. I typically will ask after a questionable shot the shooter’s intent. and yield to the shooter.

This shot was so close to slop, that I had to ask him before he shot.
Edit: I know that calling someone over would have kept this from escalating. I don’t like playing with people who look for controversy. Do I need to carry a rule book to matches?
chao
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@Kjackxon: As of the time of this post, there are four pages of discussion, and on the 3rd only GideonF actually get near the inconsistency in your post....

You stated that the opponent was "shooting the 10 ball", which was partially blocked by the 15 ball. You then describe a carom shot--10 OFF of the 15. However, you then asked if your opponent intended the "combo". There are two different shots in play.

You used the word "combo" incorrectly, because what happened was a carom shot (or "billiard"). If he had sunk the 15, then *that* would have been a combination (combo). You could have questioned the "carom", but that depends on the ruleset being used.

Your follow-ups were an attempt to get clarification on when "combo" needs to be called, and most of the replies say that you don't--which is true when playing ball-and-pocket rulesets--only the intended ball and intended pocket need be nominated. If you were playing "call everything" (sometimes referred to as "bar rules", although that term is very broad), then the combination shot should be called, and possibly even specifying both balls--such as "10-15 combo" (assuming the 15 is the intended ball to pot).

Also, in the case of playing ball-and-pocket, and again assuming the 15 was intended to go in the pocket, then one *could* call the "combo", but it's less clear than calling the intended "15 ball, corner", even though it is not the fully qualified "10-15 combo, corner", or something like that.

I apologize, if any of this comes off as critical, as I am not trying to be negative. I just wanted to point out that I found part of your first post a bit confusing, and I think that unintentionally led to more confusion.
 
muskyed said:
I agree with Dave and garczar, but don't be afraid to ask first if its not obvious to you. Thw other player shouldn't be upset at you asking unless it gets carried away at obvious shots. In league you get to know the players and their abilities.
The good players in our leagues, 600+ fargo, are very honest about it and will let you know if they miss or foul, there is a couple 450 and below fargo that you have to question first at times.''
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''Incidentals'' go together well with, Well liquor/ego/home court and lack of knowledge.
Fair play in bars is not a reality, unless your in a large pool room with bar tables.
 
heater451 said:
"bar rules",
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A Hustler tool. 🤷‍♂️
Often employed by the small time er or beginner hustlers.
I made them pay for the lessons. The amount depended on the depth of their egos and er pockets. 🤷‍♂️
A favorite uh colloquial ism is, "the only way you can be hustled is if you R trying to Hustle.
The strategy for that game of 8 ball where they want a rail brush called was to fill the pockets. Er uh Pocket speed. None of "that ball in hand crap!" 😉 so a rail ain't required.
How does that uh fable go?
"Don't throw me into That briar patch! Please!" 😉
 
Kjackxon said:
I’m get it that you call the pocket and the ball. I’m not concerned about kisses, carom, and banks, as long as it’s clear of the intent. From my view there was an obstruction blocking his ball, and he didn’t call the combination. He called the 10 ball, and missed it. I’m certain that there’s a rule or opinion on combinations, and when you should call one. I questioned that before he took the shot.
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The opponents intent is not your concern, only the ball in the called pocket, that's it, nothing else is your business. The only rule is that you call the ball you intend to pocket and the desired pocket that the ball goes in. It can combo, carom, bank, kick, or whatever else you can think of, he does not have to call any of that, if the number ball that he called went in the pocket he called its a good shot. That is of course as long as he hits his ball first and doesn't foul. That's it, nice and simple, they do it this way to reduce arguments.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Quit 8 ball and play 9 ball. Then you won’t have to deal with nitty shit. Ps in this case you are the nit. You only call the ball and pocket. As long as the hit is legal the rest doesn’t matter.

The player was right in calling the 10 in the corner since it was not obvious. But he doesn’t have to specify if it goes in on a combo or a carom or straight in.
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Dude, 9 ball is not the end all be all of pool and its certainly not the only game. Try not to be so one dimensional. 😊
 
If you really want to see the OP blow a gasket someone tell him that you don't need to call the 8 either if its obvious, and if not obvious you only need to call the 8 and the pocket. 🤣🤣
 
I was playing the girlfriend of a guy on the other team during league who didnt understand these rules. I called the ball and pocket then proceeded to hit one of my balls into a cluster of both groups but in the end the ball that I called went in the pocket I called. It was pretty much wired but it also ended up moving pretty much every ball on the table. She was mad after that and said "I should have had someone watch that shot". It was beyond clear that I hit my ball first because it was a couple of feet from the pile, then the ball I called went in the pocket I called, to this day I'm not sure what she was confused about.
 
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