Basically I disagree.
Where he is going?
I don’t know but definitely not to the top of the world
Junior Pool Is a Complicated World
- Thread starter JAM
- Start date
Where he is going?
I don’t know but definitely not to the top of the world
This is a common debate. The truth, however, is that many got to world class level without gambling more than occasionally. The three German BCA Hall of Famers Ortmann, Hohmann and Souquet are good examples. Jean Balukas was not a gambler, but was naturally motivated and fully engaged in the outcome of any tussle. I've never met a more competitive person in my life than Jean. She'd go for the throat even if you were playing her for a cup of coffee.
In contrast, future German BCA Hall of Famer Josh Filler frequently used gambling to strengthen his competitive pedigree, and it worked. At Derby City alone, Josh has played action matches in 9ball, 10ball, bank pool, one pocket, and even bar table 8ball, and against very elite opponents. Over the years, he has done it less and less, but all those action matches figured prominently in his ascension as a legendary player.
Jonny Ervolino, pool legend of the 1960s and 1970s, used to say that a player needed a lot of "time in the frying pan" to fully develop, meaning experience in high pressure situations. For some players, this always meant experience in action matches, but others could feel the heat and learn to deal with the pressure through practice matches and competition alone. It varies from player to player.
I have run into both types. I rarely gambled in my pool playing prime, but I recall a guy I used to play from time to time. He never seemed to play his best unless he was gambling. For that reason, even though I was a very slight underdog, I never played him without making at least a small bet on the outcome. On the other hand, some have fire in their eyes whether there is money riding on the outcome or not.
I've never bought into the proposition that one MUST gamble to fully develop their competitive pedigree, but quickly concede that it is true for many and not for others.
I don't like the fact that an instructor is selling, to a youngster, that gambling is a must, but if that instructor had taken the trouble to determine whether his student could build a competitive pedigree without it and decided no, I think I'm OK with it.
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I hope the instructor also gave him advice on how to gamble responsibly. Should he be playing sets for all of the money he has to his name? Playing for $5 or $10 or whatever ok. The issue is when they start playing for more and more money as they dont get the same rush or focus as they did playing for small amounts. If a junior plays for 10k, is he putting up the money himself or is it a parent/backer? What happens if he loses? Does he have to pay it back at some point?
There are different levels of gambling. I feel like everyone just lumps them all together.
Yeah. I actually don’t like the word gambling in some situations- I think there is a difference between playing for money and gambling. I am talking in a qualitative sense, not a definitional way as seen in a dictionary or your state or local laws pertaining to the topic. I think most probably agree with this. Playing sets for some cash against a player you know or one pocket for something isn’t the type of competition I’d describe as gambling. The stakes have something to do with it but not exactly. I think it is a know it when we see it kind of thing. A junior playing $50 sets against a local good player just isn’t the same thing as big matches with backers and/ or corporations and/ or side action. There’s just a difference between playing for something on the line and bricks of cash, trying to make a living from the betting etc…. Hard to define an exact line between the two, but I think we see it.
OMG! Thank you for letting me know. I will delete. What a terrible mistake! I appreciate your good eye.
When the kid told me about it, red flags went up.
But that's how I learned.
Am I being hypocritical here??
Who knows.
The one thing I do know is playing under the pressure that gambling provides allows a player to develop what I like to call the ability to "bring it cold."
How many times have we all watched players fold after having sat for 5 hours waiting to be called for their next match?? Being able to 'bring it cold' gives a player a definite advantage over one who needs to hit a few B4 he's in good form.
Just my thots on it.
He's quite jaded for his years now, having seen that side of things.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
Nothing complicated about this. As a matter of fact it proves the point that these kids are already morally bankrupt from the subculture of gambling that surrounds pool and the negative affect that gambling has on pool. No other sport has suffered as badly from gambling and the stain it brings. Congrats to the parents, great job.
It’s about testing yourself repeatedly in competition. Some competitions involve money and others don’t. You can get experience either way.
Jackson Koivun is 21 and made the Presidents Cup team. He has been training and competing at whatever the highest level available to him was since he could barely walk. Maybe he did some high stakes gambling along the way but probably not, and even if so it was likely a marginal contributor to his development.
Jackson Koivun is 21 and made the Presidents Cup team. He has been training and competing at whatever the highest level available to him was since he could barely walk. Maybe he did some high stakes gambling along the way but probably not, and even if so it was likely a marginal contributor to his development.
Good example. There is more than one way to test yourself in the fire and build your pedigree.
I have a suspicion that the decision to not extend an invitation to these two junior players goes deeper than “they gamble” and very likely extends into specific incidents and behaviors that very few are privy to. I don’t know details. You can just smell when there’s more to a story by how each side frames their position.
Ra is an exceptional person and is doing more for US youth pool growth than probably anyone else. Its painful to see him lambasted on social media for taking the high road and essentially saying "gambling" so that he doesn't need to get into gritty details. This tournament will have a sponsorship and with that, I am sure that company would rather take someone slightly weaker but miles ahead in integrity.
The aforementioned post about a match is apparently only a small example of the rumored persistent behavior.
Could be a mistake, but for some reason keeps screwing the bottle in the line of sight then moves it off during the final stroke
The aforementioned post about a match is apparently only a small example of the rumored persistent behavior.
FINAL | Hayden Ernst vs Colston Harrelson | USA CUE SPORTS NATIONALS U17 BOYS 9-Ball
Timestamp if it doesn't autoload: 29:07Could be a mistake, but for some reason keeps screwing the bottle in the line of sight then moves it off during the final stroke
More than a hundred and twenty five years ago a guy named Willie Hoppe traveled the country with his parents playing pool pardon me, Billiards, hustling for money to help to help his family out financially. Was that being a purist? Trying to win money? Also more than a hundred years ago an athlete named Jim Thorpe played a few professional games of football before he competed in the olympics. They stripped him of his titles because he wasn't legally an amateur. Humm. Nowadays, all of the above is being questioned except hustling (playing for money) is wrong and amateurs get to play with pro's and are financially compensated. I say in the end what was frowned/sanctioned upon in the past found its way into acceptable behavior.
I just found this from 1895 from the New York Times via Newspapers.com.. The Frank Hoppe mentioned was Willie's father. This was just as Willie and Frank Jr. were starting to do major exhibitions in New York City. They had started to do exhibitions/matches about a year before in upstate New York.
Young guys acting like dipshits. I can't believe it
Stay off social media kids or have your parents hire a proper pubic relations person if you need it for work.
Stay off social media kids or have your parents hire a proper pubic relations person if you need it for work.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
People have to gamble because there isn't enough money in pool. Their isn't enough money in pool because of the gambling association. There isn't enough money in pool so people have to gamble. Pool does not have enough money because there are no sponsors because of the association with gambling and other forms of addiction. Round and round we go.
Speaking about the US, of course. Well, grifting seems to be widely socially acceptable in the US at all levels now, maybe I should just give up the argument.
Speaking about the US, of course. Well, grifting seems to be widely socially acceptable in the US at all levels now, maybe I should just give up the argument.
Pretty much all sports are a cake eaters game.
If you aren't funded by the bank of mom and dad plus a chauffeur with nothing else to do, to take you around to the events at all hours and weekends...GOOD LUCK!
Many minor league athletes and even some pros have to work other jobs to chase a dream.
Pool isn't any different.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
The legal gambling services have not taken on pool. Why do you think that is?