Turning Stone - Archer Forfeit vs SVB?

jay helfert · Aug 25, 2019

All Ball Fouls (Foul On All Balls) is a rule that is used in most major tournaments worldwide. It is used almost exclusively where matches are either televised of streamed. It has been the rule of choice for Straight Pool as long as I can remember.

The proper use of this rule is that TOUCHING any object ball with your hand, your cue, your hair or your clothing is a foul! That's pretty cut and dry. Touch a ball and you've committed a foul. It does not matter if it happens before, during or after a shot.

This particular adaptation of the rule can lend itself to confusion and I can see why something like this could happen. JMHO as always.

Cardigan Kid · Aug 26, 2019

Tin Man said:
SVB did nothing wrong. People keep circling the same arguments or coming up with even further far fetched objections. I'm trying to consolidate all of the objections in one post. If you guys have any more I'll add them to the list. So far we have:

1. This is a ridiculous foul to call. The TD put rules in place at the player's meeting and specified an alternative rule set to those traditionally enforced. As a result the traditional etiquette of what is a foul changes. If you don't like the rules, create a thread about the your distaste for all ball foul variants in play during non-refereed matches.

2. The 7 ball didn't move. The 7 ball isn't required to move for it to be a foul. If the 7 ball is touched by the shooting player during the shot then it is a foul.

3. How do we know the 7 ball was touched? Where is the video evidence? We know because SVB called a foul, and he wouldn't call foul if the 7 ball wasn't touched. Unless you are suggesting that SVB fabricated a foul which no one here has had the audacity to suggest, thankfully. Video evidence has never been a requirement of a player to call a foul.

What's really going on here is that normally what Johnny did wouldn't be a foul so in essentially all other tournaments a player would never call foul here people, so it creates the perception that SVB breached etiquette. As a result people are reacting emotionally and rationalizing a series of weak arguments to justify their outrage.

Good post, I'd like to add....

It may have been 2015 US Open...the one Kevin Cheng won...Shane bowed out of the tournament by calling a foul on himself, that nobody saw in the accustats arena or on the live stream. I believe it was a similar foul.

Opinions vary regarding on if he should've called it, but his integrity on this issue has a history of being rock solid. I know others will bring up the racking issues and that is up for debate, but as far as fouls and the integrity behind calling them, Shane is honorable.

PoolBum · Aug 26, 2019

Tin Man said:
3. How do we know the 7 ball was touched? Where is the video evidence? We know because SVB called a foul, and he wouldn't call foul if the 7 ball wasn't touched. Unless you are suggesting that SVB fabricated a foul which no one here has had the audacity to suggest, thankfully. Video evidence has never been a requirement of a player to call a foul.

I have to disagree with you on this point. Saying that Shane would not call a foul if the shirt didn't touch, unless he is "fabricating a foul," is like saying either (1) he is never mistaken when calling a foul, and so couldn't be wrong if he thought Archer's shirt touched the 7 ball, or (2) he is being dishonest and made up the foul when there was none just to get ball in hand.

The third possibility is that he may have been wrong that Archer's shirt touched the 7 ball, and the evidence for that possibility is that the 7 ball didn't move.

penguin · Aug 26, 2019

Tin Man said:
SVB did nothing wrong.

...

3. How do we know the 7 ball was touched? Where is the video evidence? We know because SVB called a foul, and he wouldn't call foul if the 7 ball wasn't touched.

You are making the ridiculous claim that Shane has been 100% infallible and above board his entire pool career and, therefore, it was a foul simply because "Shane said so".

That same argument has been used unsuccessfully before...

jay helfert said:
TheMarsMan said:

Shane was deep in the US Open, playing Corey Duel and he called a foul on himself that no one else saw. I don't know anyone who is more honest playing pool, I would be willing to wager that Shane doesn't believe he fouled or he would of called it.

Click to expand...

John, I would refer you to the Bank Pool finals at DCC against John Morra, when Shane called a two rail bank and made it four rails instead. We both know what happened after that.

For those who don't know what happened after that, the referee had to step in (at John's request) to make the correct call against Shane and in favor of John Morra.

Fortunately, in that particular case, there was a referee. Otherwise, Shane would have been given a pass there, too, and John Morra might have been cheated out of his 2012 Derby City Bank Pool championship.

Tin Man said:
people are reacting emotionally and rationalizing a series of weak arguments to justify their outrage.

Kind of like how so many members of Shane's fan club rush to apologize for Shane every time he has a "lapse in judgement".

Tin Man · Aug 26, 2019

Foul

penguin said:
You are making the ridiculous claim that Shane has been 100% infallible and above board his entire pool career and, therefore, it was a foul simply because "Shane said so".

That same argument has been used unsuccessfully before...

For those who don't know what happened after that, the referee had to step in (at John's request) to make the correct call against Shane and in favor of John Morra.

Fortunately, in that particular case, there was a referee. Otherwise, Shane would have been given a pass there, too, and John Morra might have been cheated out of his 2012 Derby City Bank Pool championship.

Kind of like how so many members of Shane's fan club rush to apologize for Shane every time he has a "lapse in judgement".

No, I am making the claim that a shooter calls foul when they see a foul. We assume they are telling the truth. The shooter has the right to dispute if they disagree. Video evidence is NOT a requirement for a player to call a foul.

Players have been calling fouls on each other for 100 years and has always worked the same. I don’t understand why this situation is complicated. Maybe because we can’t see the ball move from the camera or maybe because we don’t like this rules format or SVB. It really makes no sense.

A player saw a foul and called a foul. The shooter conceded the table. It is really that simple.

pt109 · Aug 26, 2019

Tin Man said:
No, I am making the claim that a shooter calls foul when they see a foul. We assume they are telling the truth. The shooter has the right to dispute if they disagree. Video evidence is NOT a requirement for a player to call a foul.

Players have been calling fouls on each other for 100 years and has always worked the same. I don’t understand why this situation is complicated. Maybe because we can’t see the ball move from the camera or maybe because we don’t like this rules format or SVB. It really makes no sense.

A player saw a foul and called a foul. The shooter conceded the table. It is really that simple.

My view.....playing all fouls should be refereed.
I’ve been asked to gamble ‘all fouls’ and I refused....
..some fouls I won’t know I made...I don’t want my opponent calling therm...PERIOD

In refereed matches, I have had about five fouls called that I didn’t think were fouls...
...I didn’t say a word...I don’t expect a ref to be perfect...but he has to be unbiased.

Turning Stone - Archer Forfeit vs SVB?

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member

PoolBum

Ace in the side.

penguin

AzB Silver Member

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member

pt109

WO double hemlock