Turning Stone - Archer Forfeit vs SVB?

wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's correct. Customarily, if you move the ball you are jacked up over, or the ball over which you are jumping over or masse-ing around, it's a foul whether you are playing cue ball fouls only or all ball fouls.

That is correct but it has nothing to do with this foul because Johnny was not jacked up over a ball or jumping or masse-ing, his shirt sleeve came close to or touched a ball way behind the cueball.
It may have been a legitimate foul but the match would have to have a referee or video evidence or Johnny would have had to agree it was a foul.
Johnny obviously didn't agree but went ahead and allowed the foul call by Shane. Dumb on Johnny's part. He should have said no foul because it was a real ticky-tack call on Shane's part.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
And they used to be such good friends. Oh well, that's Pool!

I just watched the video above. That was a chicken sh-t call by Shane! He must be having a bad year.

I'm coming on here to apologize to Shane for my comments above. He called me to explain exactly what rules they are playing under. It's All Ball fouls and if you touch any ball in the commission of shot that is a foul. If Johnny had stopped before shooting that would have been different, but he didn't. Shane distinctly saw his shirt on the ball and the ball moved slightly. And I do know his vision is better than 20-20 so I believe him. In the absence of a referee it is left up to the players to make the call.

I asked Shane what Johnny's reaction was, and he was upset that Shane called him for a "small" foul like that and quit the match. Number one Johnny shouldn't have quit, as others have said on here. The match was certainly not over at 6-4. Number two, as Shane pointed out to me, He should not be wearing a long sleeve shirt with these rules in place. Number three, when playing with these rules there should be a referee present.

All and all an unfortunate situation for both players but after talking with Shane I totally believe him that a foul did take place and he saw it. He was in the perfect position to make the call and Shane is not one to lie about anything. My bad on this one! :frown:
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Johnny can't say if he hit it or not. So unless he sees that the 7 is moved, he should just stand his ground and keep the table. Pointless to concede the match, just beat the man.

If this was me gambling, I'm paying off that set and looking for better action.

Your calling it chickenshit had nothing to do with wheter Shane saw it or not.
 

9 Ball Fan

Darth Maximus
Silver Member
To the viewer; it appears that his shirt touched the ball, but the ball didn't move. I wouldn't have called it a foul, if the ball didn't move. I guess they agreed to certain rules in advance. It's between them.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm coming on here to apologize to Shane for my comments above. He called me to explain exactly what rules they are playing under. It's All Ball fouls and if you touch any ball in the commission of shot that is a foul. If Johnny had stopped before shooting that would have been different, but he didn't. Shane distinctly saw his shirt on the ball and the ball moved slightly. And I do know his vision is better than 20-20 so I believe him. In the absence of a referee it is left up to the players to make the call.

I asked Shane what Johnny's reaction was, and he was upset that Shane called him for a "small" foul like that and quit the match. Number one Johnny shouldn't have quit, as others have said on here. The match was certainly not over at 6-4. Number two, as Shane pointed out to me, He should not be wearing a long sleeve shirt with these rules in place. Number three, when playing with these rules there should be a referee present.

All and all an unfortunate situation for both players but after talking with Shane I totally believe him that a foul did take place and he saw it. He was in the perfect position to make the call and Shane is not one to lie about anything. My bad on this one! :frown:

Thanks Jay for the insight.

Without a ref it is Shanes job to catch it.
I will apologize also. Man says its a foul within
the rules, he was well within his rights, if not obligated
to call the foul.
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Shane had the best seat in the house.

I'm coming on here to apologize to Shane for my comments above. He called me to explain exactly what rules they are playing under. It's All Ball fouls and if you touch any ball in the commission of shot that is a foul. If Johnny had stopped before shooting that would have been different, but he didn't. Shane distinctly saw his shirt on the ball and the ball moved slightly. And I do know his vision is better than 20-20 so I believe him. In the absence of a referee it is left up to the players to make the call.

I asked Shane what Johnny's reaction was, and he was upset that Shane called him for a "small" foul like that and quit the match. Number one Johnny shouldn't have quit, as others have said on here. The match was certainly not over at 6-4. Number two, as Shane pointed out to me, He should not be wearing a long sleeve shirt with these rules in place. Number three, when playing with these rules there should be a referee present.

All and all an unfortunate situation for both players but after talking with Shane I totally believe him that a foul did take place and he saw it. He was in the perfect position to make the call and Shane is not one to lie about anything. My bad on this one! :frown:



Jay,

Shane had the best seat in the house, a better view for this foul than even the camera so I'd say it would be hard to argue with him. His sayso is good enough for me!

Johnny didn't quit until Shane shot the five and got perfect on the six. A very easy out from there and the race was to nine. I would bet Shane against anyone in the world with Shane breaking and having to get to two before the other player got to five!

Hu
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let me repeat again to all the people who are saying they wouldn’t have called the foul. None of you play for a living. As far as I know all of you play for the love and thrill of the game then go back to your normal job. It’s a completely different perspective if you were playing to pay your bills. These guys aren’t in a sport like the nfl where you get your game check win or lose. They are literally playing for their lives
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let me repeat again to all the people who are saying they wouldn’t have called the foul. None of you play for a living. As far as I know all of you play for the love and thrill of the game then go back to your normal job. It’s a completely different perspective if you were playing to pay your bills. These guys aren’t in a sport like the nfl where you get your game check win or lose. They are literally playing for their lives

And I'll say again, I still wouldn't call it, but that doesn't make Shane or anyone that would a bad person.
 

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
Silver Member
First thought is usually the right one.

It was a chicken s*it call, you know it, and everyone else knows it.
There are rules, and there are "rules"

As others have said, I've noticed more of this type behavior in the past few years from Shane and I wonder if it is just that he doesn't enjoy pool as much, or something between him and that opponent.

Granted most of the time Shane is very kind, and a gentleman, but there was no need for that.

I'm coming on here to apologize to Shane for my comments above. He called me to explain exactly what rules they are playing under. It's All Ball fouls and if you touch any ball in the commission of shot that is a foul. If Johnny had stopped before shooting that would have been different, but he didn't. Shane distinctly saw his shirt on the ball and the ball moved slightly. And I do know his vision is better than 20-20 so I believe him. In the absence of a referee it is left up to the players to make the call.

I asked Shane what Johnny's reaction was, and he was upset that Shane called him for a "small" foul like that and quit the match. Number one Johnny shouldn't have quit, as others have said on here. The match was certainly not over at 6-4. Number two, as Shane pointed out to me, He should not be wearing a long sleeve shirt with these rules in place. Number three, when playing with these rules there should be a referee present.

All and all an unfortunate situation for both players but after talking with Shane I totally believe him that a foul did take place and he saw it. He was in the perfect position to make the call and Shane is not one to lie about anything. My bad on this one! :frown:
 

westcoast

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played in tournaments at the 8 Ball Saloon in Ann Arbor, Michigan around 20 years ago and it was all ball fouls and it was the way all the regulars called it, so if you didn't call such fouls you were putting yourself at a disadvantage. I did call such fouls on the rare occasion it happened once I realized that it was the common standard at their tournaments.

I generally prefer cue ball fouls only, but the rules are the rules. If it was as minor as the Archer incident, I don't know if I'd call it. These are split second decisions really. I doubt Shane was plotting to shark Archer. He probably just saw the foul and immediately called it without deep thought.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
That is correct but it has nothing to do with this foul because Johnny was not jacked up over a ball or jumping or masse-ing, his shirt sleeve came close to or touched a ball way behind the cueball.
It may have been a legitimate foul but the match would have to have a referee or video evidence or Johnny would have had to agree it was a foul.
Johnny obviously didn't agree but went ahead and allowed the foul call by Shane. Dumb on Johnny's part. He should have said no foul because it was a real ticky-tack call on Shane's part.

Agreed, I was just reacting to a rule mentioned by another poster.
 

Rico

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He ******* fouled get over it ! You I wouldnt call it nits wouldnt call it because you cant from the rail.Who can beat who experts, Ionce heard a guy ask this tush hog if he could whip this other tush hog ( both tougher than tree bark).The guy says well go fight him then come and fight me .But fight him first or you will .never know. The rule was its a foul when in the act of shooting.Putt them all in there aint no gimmies.
 

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I thought it was against Biado but I could be wrong and yes it was straight in it was for the win for Shane I believe,


1

It was against Alcano in the Manny Pacquiao tourney few years ago.
https://youtu.be/p9ZrFBWjrKk?t=5097
It was later clarified that this "calling obvious 10 ball" rule was specific rule implemented at this event.

But Biado was the biggest casualty - in semifinals he was hill hill and had super duper mega obvious 10 ball straight in few inches from side pocket and he did not call the 10 ball. His opponent Pupul pulled the crap, applied the technicality and called foul and jumped like monkey literally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZcgsHPE4Ac

In final, hill hill Efren clearly gestured at the pocket for the 10 ball and left no doubt which pocket he was shooting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB74rp1MmUI
 

poolpimp13

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shane had the best seat in the house, a better view for this foul than even the camera so I'd say it would be hard to argue with him. His sayso is good enough for me!

Johnny didn't quit until Shane shot the five and got perfect on the six. A very easy out from there and the race was to nine. I would bet Shane against anyone in the world with Shane breaking and having to get to two before the other player got to five!

Hu
just a punk move by Shane he saw Johnny was playing good so he pulled this punk move to beat Johnny. Good win .
 

croscoe

Looking to Improve
Silver Member
It’s seen all the time. All ball fouls or cue ball in motion foul. Shirt touches ref calls FOUL.
No ref at the table players need to call it. Shane waited until cue ball was struck shirt resting on ball FOUL. If for some reason Archer thought Shane was pulling BS. He could have objected. Seemed like a gentleman conversation over the call. Which I feel speaks well of the players.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you get called on a foul every time you bend over the table, maybe you need to "lose some weight" or wear something a bit more "form fitting"..

I've seen a foul called on a person whose "long hair" brushed over a ball when they leaned over. Get a haircut, you damn hippy!

I think that was more of a "the opponent will call every phantom thing they think is a foul".

All ball fouls should never be used in a pro event when players are playing for their living without a ref at each table. What do you do if a player is in way of the view of the balls, does the opponent get up and walk in front of the shot to watch it for a foul? I have seen clear fouls disputed by the shooter (jump shot by Woodward I think was a recent one at US Open maybe) and without a ref, what do you do? Give the call to the guy that argues the longest or louder? Need a ref or no all ball fouls.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
All ball fouls should never be used in a pro event when players are playing for their living without a ref at each table.

Bingo! It's just not fair to use the rule in an unofficiated match.

I think the "shirt touch" foul is the equivalent of an occurrence that's quite frequent in golf. Even on the PGA tour, if one accidentally knocks the ball a few inches off a wooden/plastic tee, there is no penalty. Golf understands that players will try their best to avoid doing this, but also recognizes that penalizing a player for such a minuscule infraction would compromise the game as well as introduce an unwanted element of luck.

Pool needs to wise up and recognize that similar reasoning should apply to the "shirt touch" foul. If no ball is moved, penalizing a player is, in my view, just plain silly and randomizes the results.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
rules

If the rule was all ball fouls without referees present then SVB did nothing wrong. If there is an issue, have an issue for the players that make the rules and put these players in a lose-lose position. Lose by calling foul and getting heckled by the masses, or lose by not calling foul and then having other players call foul on you.

I normally wouldn't call foul there, but I normally don't play with those rules. If I sat through a players meeting where they spent 10 minutes talking about how it was all ball fouls and you had to referee the other player then I'd probably follow those rules, even if it was a bit uncomfortable. Because I'd assume those were the rules everyone was going to play by, and I wouldn't want to be at a disadvantage.

In other words, traditional pool etiquette goes out the window when rules are modified by the tournament director.

For those that still disagree, let me give you another example. In the 2017 US Open 9 ball there was a new rule introduced: If the 9 ball was the only ball on the table and a player pockets it and scratches, the 9 ball spots and the other player would get cue ball in hand behind the head string. It was part of their 'bring back pressure spot shot' movement. NONE of the players liked this rule, they all thought it was super strange and gaffy and just wanted to play with the same rules as every other major tournament. But the TD was determined this would be better for the audience and for pool, so he stuck to his guns.

OK, so now picture this- you make the 9 and scratch. Are you going to tell your opponent "No, I'll let you have cue ball in hand anywhere because I think that rule is stupid"? Of course not. Because you know darn well if someone else makes the 9 and scratches you'll be shooting from the head string!

Same with that 'call the 10 ball tournament', players were lambasted for calling their opponents on that but other players called them on it too, so what are you going to do?

Bottom line, the issue is a tournament director issue. I personally don't think it's that big of an issue and am stunned with the heated responses of those who don't understand this. I do agree it's not a great rule and wish TD's would just leave the rules alone. Sometimes a well intentioned rule has unforseen consequences (like this), and as players we long for just one set of rules to avoid this type of confusion as to what is appropriate behavior.

As for SVB, the sport is lucky to have him.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For those that still disagree, let me give you another example. In the 2017 US Open 9 ball there was a new rule introduced: If the 9 ball was the only ball on the table and a player pockets it and scratches, the 9 ball spots and the other player would get cue ball in hand behind the head string. It was part of their 'bring back pressure spot shot' movement. NONE of the players liked this rule, they all thought it was super strange and gaffy and just wanted to play with the same rules as every other major tournament. But the TD was determined this would be better for the audience and for pool, so he stuck to his guns.

OK, so now picture this- you make the 9 and scratch. Are you going to tell your opponent "No, I'll let you have cue ball in hand anywhere because I think that rule is stupid"? Of course not. Because you know darn well if someone else makes the 9 and scratches you'll be shooting from the head string!

Same with that 'call the 10 ball tournament', players were lambasted for calling their opponents on that but other players called them on it too, so what are you going to do?

It's a little different though. You would obviously make your opponent shoot the spot shot regardless of how you felt about the rule. Because it's not a guaranteed make and it could certainly effect the outcome of the game/match.

Johnny's sleeve grazing the 7 ball had zero effect on the shot.

As for the 'call the 10 ball tournament' Any TD that establishes a call shot rule, and doesn't make an exception for obvious shots, should not be in charge of running a tournament.
 

JohnnyOzone

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It was against Alcano in the Manny Pacquiao tourney few years ago.
https://youtu.be/p9ZrFBWjrKk?t=5097
It was later clarified that this "calling obvious 10 ball" rule was specific rule implemented at this event.

But Biado was the biggest casualty - in semifinals he was hill hill and had super duper mega obvious 10 ball straight in few inches from side pocket and he did not call the 10 ball. His opponent Pupul pulled the crap, applied the technicality and called foul and jumped like monkey literally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZcgsHPE4Ac

In final, hill hill Efren clearly gestured at the pocket for the 10 ball and left no doubt which pocket he was shooting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB74rp1MmUI

WOW....Pulpul, biggest a**hole in history. Calling it is bad enough, but to act that way, man, what a douchebag!
 
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