A idea for a LD ferrule material

mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv
Silver Member
I have had this idea for using a new ferrule material.

I just never have done anything with this idea so I figured I would post it and see what you guys think.

I am not a Laminated LD shaft person I don't say that to be offensive , its said because I prefer a solid hit and sound of the harmonic that a solid shaft makes ...

But I do work on customers cues and some are hard core LD shaft fans ...
And my mind is always thinking of ways to possibly improve something.
I am a farm boy and generally I was raised the machine is going in the dirt and make it strong which isn't how most LD shafts are made .

Pressed stacked pig skin ferrules is my idea.
There is a good chance I am not the first one to think about this idea .
At this time it does not look like I will ever get around into getting started to even test this Idea out .

I did try pressed stacked leather , Not pig skin and it was a failure.
I used epoxy as a glue .

The ferrule was not hard enough and that's where I stopped.

I don't know if this is a good idea or not, I know there are some very soft ferrules like
PVC .
 
pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
How about just the epoxy, MMike?
...kinda how diamond wood is made....any downsides?
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Just drill a hole.
Plug up the top with disposable foam ear plug.
Push it with a T-shaped carbon fiber pad.
Install tip.
Done.
 
mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv
Silver Member
Diamond wood

pt109 said:
How about just the epoxy, MMike?
...kinda how diamond wood is made....any downsides?
Click to expand...

I know little diamond wood,
I would like to get in touch with one of the layered tip makers out of china as see if they would make some for me .

But I don't know how to get in touch with them or I might see if they would be willing to produce some for me , or me starting from scratch and making my own press and finding the right pig skin and doing it myself .

I really have other things I rather do and the pig skin ferrule is taking the back burner.
So I was tossing out this idea and seeing what everyone thinks about it .

Might be a good idea might not, I like a solid hit, so this idea really isn't something I would most likely like .

But for some reason allot of people like LD shafts and I thought maybe this might work and be helpful to the people who want a certain uncommon softer hit .
If that would be the case .....
 
WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
Actually Mike, I think this is not a bad idea. Here are a few thoughts. I don't think anyone would need to manufacture anything for you; just take two layered tips and glue them together to make the "ferrule." You mention pigskin, but I tend to think a hard water buffalo layered tip like Talisman might do the trick better, but it's just a guess. And I wouldn't use a CA glue to glue the two together, I would use a slower curing epoxy like Conap, or even longer curing. Of course, you have to then drill a hole in the resulting two-tip ferrule for the shaft tenon, and you're off and rolling. I would think this would be a straight tenon, rather than threaded. For a true LD shaft, I would assume you would core and fill the forward end of the shaft, but not necessarily, depending on the taper of the shaft, etc.

This is actually not that different from the original OB shafts, except they used laminated wood for the ferrule, though obviously their construction is unique. This would be something similar, only with laminated hard leather. Water buffalo would have a black tone, whereas pig skin would have a light brown tone, but would darken over time. I think it would have to be fairly hard leather to avoid mushrooming.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts. I don't think it's that off the wall actually. It seems to me that it would provide a nice solid, but somewhat dampened hit with laminated leather.

All the best,
WW
 
9Ballr

9Ballr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why does there have to be a ferrule?

Can't the tip be glued directly on the wood it self?

Especially if the tip has a bottom like the Kamui clear just to name one.
 
greyghost

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
9Ballr said:
Why does there have to be a ferrule?

Can't the tip be glued directly on the wood it self? yes or you can use a pad, the red pads look cool like this :) because it shows sorta like how the kamui clear is noticable

Especially if the tip has a bottom like the Kamui clear just to name one.
Click to expand...

the ferrules main purpose is to keep the end of the wooden shaft from damage due to abrasion and such.....it can def change the hit, but i've shot with cues without ferrules for a long time. i had installed an oak ferrule long before i ever got to use a cue lathe (wood lathe, and just drilled a hole, oversize ferrule, turned round when i was 15 meucci SP)

the butt end of the cue esp a cue with a bumper is the weakest part, especially when people hit it on the floor, many are alot rougher with the booty of the cue than they should be....lol.....but for the most part.....thats built basically just like a ferrule and tip is with tennons, i'm sure theres much more "outward" stresses because the bumper is usually "inside" an i.d. on the cap....but i've still seen solid capped cues of delrin/phenolic and such with the tennon in center from handle area, spit up center of that tennon and spread out though inside to the outer shell of the buttsleeve and crack the buttlseeve.........hoppe cues are stronger imop in this fashion, maybe i'm wrong......but regardless if the shaft is any safer or not because of the shot forces on the ball....i would think that its basically strong enough that it doesn't even matter because unless it has some stress fracture you cant tell of then your not going to break it. I've broke with a ferrule less cue for almost 4 years pretty regular between 2 diff shafts....i mean smashing the rack....many think i'm nuts here.....shafts are both still money.....the first one i cleaned up the cue refinished it and sold to a friend, he loves it....breaks and plays with it.

and have owned a few old house cues from turn of centruy that never had one....just like the oldest cues with ferrules i've seen they are usually black plastic if they are not ivory.

my breaker has no ferrule and a treated and pressed triangle...no ferrule

never had problem number one....it does provide a firmer more active hit, quite a bit more than "normal" what people are used to imop....

best thing is if a cuemaker made that...and if you hated it, you could always add a ferrule in whatever to soften or make it less drastic.

sort of like phenolic tip/ferrule combos for a non break cue being used for a breaker....i think its good idea, because generally they never wear or get damaged, and if you ever want to be able to play with it normally you could always just get a local maker or repair guy to slice it off, face it and put a leather tip on it.

my breaker is usually a great playing cue thats acceptable weight, that i wouldn't mind bringing somewhere my more pricey cues and such wont go.

some of my cues are particular where they hand out at.....some prefer the closet only lol...some love the public....some love dive bars lol

-greyghost
 
Last edited:
9Ballr

9Ballr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
greyghost said:
the ferrules main purpose is to keep the end of the wooden shaft from damage due to abrasion and such.....it can def change the hit, but i've shot with cues without ferrules for a long time. i had installed an oak ferrule long before i ever got to use a cue lathe (wood lathe, and just drilled a hole, oversize ferrule, turned round when i was 15 meucci SP)

the butt end of the cue esp a cue with a bumper is the weakest part, especially when people hit it on the floor, many are alot rougher with the booty of the cue than they should be....lol.....but for the most part.....thats built basically just like a ferrule and tip is with tennons, i'm sure theres much more "outward" stresses because the bumper is usually "inside" an i.d. on the cap....but i've still seen solid capped cues of delrin/phenolic and such with the tennon in center from handle area, spit up center of that tennon and spread out though inside to the outer shell of the buttsleeve and crack the buttlseeve.........hoppe cues are stronger imop in this fashion, maybe i'm wrong......but regardless if the shaft is any safer or not because of the shot forces on the ball....i would think that its basically strong enough that it doesn't even matter because unless it has some stress fracture you cant tell of then your not going to break it. I've broke with a ferrule less cue for almost 4 years pretty regular between 2 diff shafts....i mean smashing the rack....many think i'm nuts here.....shafts are both still money.....the first one i cleaned up the cue refinished it and sold to a friend, he loves it....breaks and plays with it.

and have owned a few old house cues from turn of centruy that never had one....just like the oldest cues with ferrules i've seen they are usually black plastic if they are not ivory.

my breaker has no ferrule and a treated and pressed triangle...no ferrule

never had problem number one....it does provide a firmer more active hit, quite a bit more than "normal" what people are used to imop....

best thing is if a cuemaker made that...and if you hated it, you could always add a ferrule in whatever to soften or make it less drastic.

sort of like phenolic tip/ferrule combos for a non break cue being used for a breaker....i think its good idea, because generally they never wear or get damaged, and if you ever want to be able to play with it normally you could always just get a local maker or repair guy to slice it off, face it and put a leather tip on it.

my breaker is usually a great playing cue thats acceptable weight, that i wouldn't mind bringing somewhere my more pricey cues and such wont go.

some of my cues are particular where they hand out at.....some prefer the closet only lol...some love the public....some love dive bars lol

-greyghost
Click to expand...


Excellent explanation.

Thanks
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
There is a quite cheap and effective substitute for your pressed leather, pressed bark. You take the bark off a birch tree (not a live one, obviously) and stack and press it. You can use a vise for the pressing or other means. Makes a nice knifehandle and probably a nice ferrule as well. For extra strength, make sure that the fibers are rotated on each layer. I don't know if other trees have bark that can be used this way, as I have only used birch (for a knife). My uncle taught me the technique to do this, it's fun, easy and cheap to do. The layered construction with alternating graindirection should give plenty of impact resistance, like a roman shield!

I don't know if it's very ld, but it should be approximately the same as no ferrule, maybe slightly heavier, while being more resistant to splitting. Kind of like the OB ferrules.
 
Last edited:
Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
Just drill a hole.
Plug up the top with disposable foam ear plug.
Push it with a T-shaped carbon fiber pad.
Install tip.
Done.
Click to expand...
hmmmm, interesting idea Joey!

Any suggestions on where I could acquire a t-shaped carbon fiber pad or how to make one?

I'm actually picking up a new cue tomorrow with an 8mm carbon fiber ferrule made out of a carbon fiber tube which will be about 0.8mm thick. This is for use in 2 shot 8 ball, which uses a CB 96 grams, nearly half of the 160 gram US Pool balls.

Personally, I don't think there is any benefit with US Pool cues by going ultra light ferrule. Nylon and 12mm diameter produces about the right amount of squirt to deal with most bridge lengths around 12 inches.

If people like a longer bridge length, a lighter tip end mass may be better. If they like a shorter bridge length, then a 13mm ivory ferrule set up may be better.

If this confuses people, it's because accidental steering, by off CCB striking, is reduced on slower shots when bridge length and squirt are well suited. On firm shots, the correct ratio can pretty much eliminate stroking errors.

Hence, for the light CB game, I need a very small and low end tip mass to make a suitable bridge length of around 10-11 inches for firm shots. My current cue is 8.9mm brass ferule and the pivot point is a mere 8 inches with that tiny cue ball. Uncomfortably short for back hand english shots with power, and a short pivot point reduces margin of error.

Colin
 
greyghost

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
There is a quite cheap and effective substitute for your pressed leather, pressed bark. You take the bark off a birch tree (not a live one, obviously) and stack and press it. You can use a vise for the pressing or other means. Makes a nice knifehandle and probably a nice ferrule as well. For extra strength, make sure that the fibers are rotated on each layer. I don't know if other trees have bark that can be used this way, as I have only used birch (for a knife). My uncle taught me the technique to do this, it's fun, easy and cheap to do. The layered construction with alternating graindirection should give plenty of impact resistance, like a roman shield!

I don't know if it's very ld, but it should be approximately the same as no ferrule, maybe slightly heavier, while being more resistant to splitting. Kind of like the OB ferrules.
Click to expand...

i think your birching up the wrong tree....lol just kidding...thats SUPER COOL!!!! I'm thinking the bark of cypress and treated cedar would also work as they have similar characteristics to what you said.....i will tell my buddy who makes knives about this.....already taught him to finish, maybe he will throw me a blade after this...ill give you half :p
 
greyghost

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
WildWing said:
Actually Mike, I think this is not a bad idea. Here are a few thoughts. I don't think anyone would need to manufacture anything for you; just take two layered tips and glue them together to make the "ferrule." You mention pigskin, but I tend to think a hard water buffalo layered tip like Talisman might do the trick better, but it's just a guess. And I wouldn't use a CA glue to glue the two together, I would use a slower curing epoxy like Conap, or even longer curing. Of course, you have to then drill a hole in the resulting two-tip ferrule for the shaft tenon, and you're off and rolling. I would think this would be a straight tenon, rather than threaded. For a true LD shaft, I would assume you would core and fill the forward end of the shaft, but not necessarily, depending on the taper of the shaft, etc.

This is actually not that different from the original OB shafts, except they used laminated wood for the ferrule, though obviously their construction is unique. This would be something similar, only with laminated hard leather. Water buffalo would have a black tone, whereas pig skin would have a light brown tone, but would darken over time. I think it would have to be fairly hard leather to avoid mushrooming.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts. I don't think it's that off the wall actually. It seems to me that it would provide a nice solid, but somewhat dampened hit with laminated leather.

All the best,
WW
Click to expand...

conap (construction)........one of cue makings adhesive hall of fames greatest members along with elmers glue (wraps), locktite 454 (tips/finish*), titebond/woodglue (construction)

honorable mention:gorilla glue (for those ballsy enough lol)


gorilla glue is like the perfect 8 ball break......the balls spread out to maximum expansion, with the most minimal contraction post expansion after rebounding off rails and such.......and you either will make a ball and not scratch and run out....or you dont and/or scratch and your opponent is licking his chops at the cosmo in front of him. Superb gap filling and strength properties....use to much and your win the cue making Michael Bay move of the day award.

if you really want to give a noob a bad day...tell him to do what joey said to his shaft but fill the hole with gorilla glue, install the carbon t pad....put in chuck, attach tail stock and press it tight and lock it in.....say something weird like DPK and tlel them to put a towel on it and not look at it for 24 hours as the wood will be sleeping and needs is rest due to surgery......

next day brains will be everywhere, if i did this to a friend and he/she got mad....id just laugh and ask do you have a brain and did you even read the bottle? that woulda stopped ya right there.
 
B

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
I wonder if just a carbon fiber pad alone can perform the function of a ferule? Maybe stack two or three of them together.

As I understand it, the only function of the ferule is to protect the shaft wood from splitting. Wood is lots of long, thin fibers that bond together while growing. Those fibers are actually quite easy to split on their "long" axis (i.e. rip cut).

A ferule spreads the impact across the shaft surface so it isn't focused on one section of the fibers. I doubt the size (length) of the ferule has much to do with it (does a one-inch ferule protect the wood more than a 1/2-inch ferule? I doubt it.)
 
mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv
Silver Member
Pad

bdorman said:
I wonder if just a carbon fiber pad alone can perform the function of a ferule? Maybe stack two or three of them together.

As I understand it, the only function of the ferule is to protect the shaft wood from splitting. Wood is lots of long, thin fibers that bond together while growing. Those fibers are actually quite easy to split on their "long" axis (i.e. rip cut).

A ferule spreads the impact across the shaft surface so it isn't focused on one section of the fibers. I doubt the size (length) of the ferule has much to do with it (does a one-inch ferule protect the wood more than a 1/2-inch ferule? I doubt it.)
Click to expand...

If you hit a steel piece of cold roll or a brass punch or a wooden dowel on the end with a steel hammer it wants to mushroom the end, because its the easiest path of resistance ..
A ferrule wraps around the tenon so it will not do the same thing.
 
Sealegs50

Sealegs50

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
9Ballr said:
Why does there have to be a ferrule?

Can't the tip be glued directly on the wood it self?

Especially if the tip has a bottom like the Kamui clear just to name one.
Click to expand...

I wrote to people at Kamui prior to installing one of their Clear tips on an ivory ferrule and asked if the clear pad would serve as a surrogate for a fiber pad. The concerns about splitting ivory ferrules is the same as the concern for splitting a ferruleless shaft. They would not answer my question directly. The impression I got from their response was that the Clear layer was not designed to serve that purpose. I noticed that the layer next to the Clear pad also appears different from the other leather layers. Thinking that layer might also help to protect, and not wanting to put another material between the Clear pad and the ferrule, I took the risk and had the tip installed directly to the ivory ferrule. I watch the tip as it continues to be used for signs of mushrooming. The tip is a Clear Black Medium, has seen quite a bit of play, and shows no signs of mushrooming. If it ever does, I will replace it rather than risk cracking the ferrule. But so far, so good.
 
Sealegs50

Sealegs50

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Colin Colenso said:
If people like a longer bridge length, a lighter tip end mass may be better. If they like a shorter bridge length, then a 13mm ivory ferrule set up may be better.

If this confuses people, it's because accidental steering, by off CCB striking, is reduced on slower shots when bridge length and squirt are well suited. On firm shots, the correct ratio can pretty much eliminate stroking errors.
Click to expand...

:thumbup: Greenie already sent.
 
ceebee

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Guido Orlandi is working on ferrule material these days. He is using a Durometer Meter to gauge the possible materials & their respective specs..
 
A

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
A few years ago, cue maker Chuck Starkey (desi2960) was experimenting quite a bit with bamboo as a ferrule material, and, as I recall, he thought it worked well. But I don't recall any recent updates on his experience with it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top