Creating a weekly tournament

Derek7646

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been thinking about making a scotch doubles tournament on Saturday afternoon at noon, mostly because i enjoy playing partners. How do i go about doing this? Aside from gathering players, as i know i could spread it via word of mouth, Facebook and i have a lot of people who i know would be interested already.

There is conflicting info online about how to deal with the pool hall hosting the tournament. I am not the room owner, so i am not sure if i should be requesting added prize money from them/free table time during the tournament (assuming i get a good turnout that buys food and drinks) OR offering them a small cut of the tournament buy-in's for them allowing me to run this tournament.

I am not making a statement so much as asking what the general feel is in this situation, as i have never done something like this before. A tournament brings in potential customers for them and its almost never busy Saturday afternoons anyway.

I am going to talk to the bartenders/room owner about it, but i wanted to know some pros, con's and talking points before bringing it up to them. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated :)
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
My advice would be not do it weekly because someone has to be there to
get it going. If you miss a week just not showing up, you'll miss someone who will
stop coming period. After you post the tournament expect to have to spread the word and remind people email at the very least.



I have been thinking about making a scotch doubles tournament on Saturday afternoon at noon, mostly because i enjoy playing partners. How do i go about doing this? Aside from gathering players, as i know i could spread it via word of mouth, Facebook and i have a lot of people who i know would be interested already.

There is conflicting info online about how to deal with the pool hall hosting the tournament. I am not the room owner, so i am not sure if i should be requesting added prize money from them/free table time during the tournament (assuming i get a good turnout that buys food and drinks) OR offering them a small cut of the tournament buy-in's for them allowing me to run this tournament.

I am not making a statement so much as asking what the general feel is in this situation, as i have never done something like this before. A tournament brings in potential customers for them and its almost never busy Saturday afternoons anyway.

I am going to talk to the bartenders/room owner about it, but i wanted to know some pros, con's and talking points before bringing it up to them. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated :)
 

Derek7646

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, that's a good tip! An email subscriber list could also be a good way to gauge how many people are interested as well, could also get me an estimated headcount on a weekly basis.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, that's a good tip! An email subscriber list could also be a good way to gauge how many people are interested as well, could also get me an estimated headcount on a weekly basis.

You are in MA, what area/room are you trying to do this in? I run a weekly out of Ayer but I did not start it. I did help get new player in though, probably a half dozen new players that stuck around and even joined league. I find that taking time with new players to do some lessons helps, but really depends on the person. First step is to get together with the owner/manager and talk over what is OK for them, they likely already have a Facebook or email/texting thing setup, maybe league where you can also get players for the tournament from (although don't count on it too much, I play out of two rooms with a large league population and almost none of them play in the weekly tournaments).

If you are a regular there, you should know the "players", talk to them about doing a tournaments, see what they think about handicap, no handicap, races, what game to play, etc... Really depends on the room and the people that tend to go there. In most places, if you do a $20 called shot 10 ball event you will get 3 people to show up, if you do an 8 ball APA rules $10 or $5 event, you may get 20.

For a casual thing, races to 2, alternate break 8 ball, standard world rules would be good. One of the guys that started a weekly at a room used that tournament as a way to teach the APA players the "real" rules of pool. Or you can rotate the games, the tournament I do alternates between 8 and 9 ball on even and odd days, and I try to keep the races fluid based on how many players we get. If we get 8, I do races to 4 and 3 on losers side, if we get 12 or more we do 3 and 2.

Payouts also may vary, one place takes money out for the bar and bartender tip, another does not. One place does only two payouts, in the one I run I do 3 or 4 depending on how many we get to try to get some new players cashing.
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... I am going to talk to the bartenders/room owner about it, but i wanted to know some pros, con's and talking points before bringing it up to them. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated :)
Do they usually have good business at noon on Saturdays? If it's slow, that would be a big plus.

I think you have to set it up so that it is simple enough that the bartender could run it if you're not there.

Lots of details depend on how many players and how many tables.
 

Derek7646

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are in MA, what area/room are you trying to do this in? I run a weekly out of Ayer but I did not start it. I did help get new player in though, probably a half dozen new players that stuck around and even joined league. I find that taking time with new players to do some lessons helps, but really depends on the person. First step is to get together with the owner/manager and talk over what is OK for them, they likely already have a Facebook or email/texting thing setup, maybe league where you can also get players for the tournament from (although don't count on it too much, I play out of two rooms with a large league population and almost none of them play in the weekly tournaments).

If you are a regular there, you should know the "players", talk to them about doing a tournaments, see what they think about handicap, no handicap, races, what game to play, etc... Really depends on the room and the people that tend to go there. In most places, if you do a $20 called shot 10 ball event you will get 3 people to show up, if you do an 8 ball APA rules $10 or $5 event, you may get 20.

For a casual thing, races to 2, alternate break 8 ball, standard world rules would be good. One of the guys that started a weekly at a room used that tournament as a way to teach the APA players the "real" rules of pool. Or you can rotate the games, the tournament I do alternates between 8 and 9 ball on even and odd days, and I try to keep the races fluid based on how many players we get. If we get 8, I do races to 4 and 3 on losers side, if we get 12 or more we do 3 and 2.

Payouts also may vary, one place takes money out for the bar and bartender tip, another does not. One place does only two payouts, in the one I run I do 3 or 4 depending on how many we get to try to get some new players cashing.

I'm looking to have this at Stix and Stones in Abington where i am a regular. I definitely have a group of people in mind that i think may be interested but its also doubles, so it may be a lot smaller group than other tourneys bring. I want doubles mainly because its the game i get the most enjoyment out of and i feel that there isn't too many leagues/tournaments out there that have it.

As for the place itself, i believe its more old school in the sense that the tournaments on Tuesday/Thursday are kind of just word of mouth, run by an old timer that's always sleeping in a chair and wakes up for cash games/tournaments.

Bob, its typically dead on Saturday's, with the exception of myself and two-three others in a place with 11 tables.

On Thursday nights, there is a handicapped 9 ball tournament that draws 10-20 people and an 8 ball tournament on Sunday evenings that draws a similar crowd, so people are around, but i find a lot of people only play in tournaments/for cash these days, so with nothing to draw them in on Saturday, many don't come to just practice like i do, which is one of the reasons i thought it might be good for all parties involved to have a friendly tournament on Saturday.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm looking to have this at Stix and Stones in Abington where i am a regular. I definitely have a group of people in mind that i think may be interested but its also doubles, so it may be a lot smaller group than other tourneys bring. I want doubles mainly because its the game i get the most enjoyment out of and i feel that there isn't too many leagues/tournaments out there that have it.

As for the place itself, i believe its more old school in the sense that the tournaments on Tuesday/Thursday are kind of just word of mouth, run by an old timer that's always sleeping in a chair and wakes up for cash games/tournaments.

Bob, its typically dead on Saturday's, with the exception of myself and two-three others in a place with 11 tables.

On Thursday nights, there is a handicapped 9 ball tournament that draws 10-20 people and an 8 ball tournament on Sunday evenings that draws a similar crowd, so people are around, but i find a lot of people only play in tournaments/for cash these days, so with nothing to draw them in on Saturday, many don't come to just practice like i do, which is one of the reasons i thought it might be good for all parties involved to have a friendly tournament on Saturday.

Stix should have a decent amount of players there, but the issue is between other tournaments, leagues, etc.., getting the time to play in yet another one would be tough for players. A lot of the players that would play there also play in the local tours on weekends. Doubles may be tough, you need to make a team unless it's random assignment and unless it's a very relaxed event you can easily end up with arguments. I don't know of any weekly doubles events, only ones are maybe a couple of doubles events a year in the local tours and in charity events.
 
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Derek7646

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stix should have a decent amount of players there, but the issue is between other tournaments, leagues, etc.., getting the time to play in yet another one would be tough for players. A lot of the players that would play there also play in the local tours on weekends. Doubles may be tough, you need to make a team unless it's random assignment and unless it's a very relaxed event you can easily end up with arguments. I don't know of any weekly doubles events, only ones are maybe a couple of doubles events a year in the local tours and in charity events.

Yeah, that was my thinking as well, but most tournaments are on Sundays, not a ton of events on Saturdays, to my knowledge. I am definitely shooting for a more relaxed environment, not $100 buy in per team or anything crazy. A relaxed environment but one that follows the rules/doesn't slow play or shark, one that cares about playing pool and will call a foul on themselves if they do one before their opponent does, or if a foul is called on them, they give them ball and hand without punching a hole in the wall. There's a very relaxed league on Tuesday that inspired me wanting to do this. Its two man teams, but not partners play. $10 per person each week, like league, but you play twice. Its relatively low dollar and attracted a very relaxed group of guys that i think may be interested in this tournament as well.

Maybe as some earlier advice stated, i could just make it a monthly thing? Schedule it around some of the bigger Saturday events, give people a lot of notice and sweeten up the pot a little with $50-60 per team, instead of the $30-40 i was initially thinking. As far as teams go, i was thinking pick your teammate or you can show up and hope to get assigned a teammate at random, assuming there is other stragglers without teams.

My plan is to be very open about the payouts, take out nothing for myself and limit the teams to having 1150 fargo or lower total/not having two APA 7's etc, as well as no open players. I want it to be fair and not have to handicap the matches by having the teams stacked relatively even and playing a race to six, alternate break, breaker chooses the game 8/9/10 ball. Rules would be,

8 ball - Call shots, call pocket. Open after the break, scratch on the 8 isn't a loss, but is ball in hand. 8 on the break counts as win, if you scratch while making it, its a loss.

9 ball - Slop until the 9, call pocket on the 9 (including combos/caroms). If made in wrong pocket, 9 is spotted and opposing team shoots. 9 on break counts in all pockets besides the back 2 corners closest to the rack. 3 foul rule in effect.

10 ball - Same as 9 ball, except call shot/pocket on every ball. Accidental pocketed balls/accidental safeties give the opposing team the choice to take the shot or give it back to you. 1

I would enforce no sharking/hassling/disturbances with 1 warning, second time costs you a game, third time you forfeit the current tournament and banned for the year. Shot clock of 1 minute, excessive slow play will not be tolerated. If it becomes a problem, racks will be forfeited. Two reasonable time extensions will be allowed per rack on difficult situations, teams will have to use judgement on those extensions.

I'm basically trying to create a fun doubles tournament that has enough cash to make it interesting, that is about playing the game to the best of your ability with a talented, equal group of people that will order some delicious cheeseburgers from Mandy's 8 ball grill.

Is this appealing to people or is it not enough cash/not serious enough/too serious/inconvenient because its a Saturday?
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
- snip -

Is this appealing to people or is it not enough cash/not serious enough/too serious/inconvenient because its a Saturday?

Really the whole thing would depend on the players in the room and area and what else they do on the weekend. Even if there is no tournament on Saturday, that does not mean that people will still go play on Sat and then Sunday, then maybe Wed in Snookers, maybe Monday in League, maybe Thursday in another League, etc...

Really all you can do is try and see what happens, the pool hall can help get the word out, and your pool hall probably has more "players" than some others around so chances are not horrible you will get 4-6 teams there regularly. Money added and a high prize can help with getting the good players in, but then again they play in lots of other events. Cheaper entry may get the lower ranked players and casual players in, but many of those avoid competition and just stick with a single person or few that they play with.

The tournaments I play in weekly, there are usually 4-10 other players in the room playing each other 9 ball, usually not horrible either. Yet when we ask them to play in the tournament which will save them 50% off table time they play, they decline. Your room may be different. And when I look at tournaments, at times I need to pick between things, people work on weekends at times, they can't spend 80% of their time playing pool, etc.. Let's say I wanted to come down and play on a Sat, but then there is league on Sunday, another tournament Sunday, a thing on Tuesday and Wed, something needs to go very likely.
 

Derek7646

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, i hear you on that. I play in a bunch of leagues and tournaments myself, but doubles appeals to me on a different level. Hopefully there is others like me out there.
 

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
8 ball - Call shots

9 ball - Call pocket on the 9 (including combos/caroms). 3 foul rule in effect.

Shot clock of 1 minute

If you are aiming for players whose avg Fargo rating is in the 500's, then these three rules are silly. Pick a national rule set (BCAPL rules are by far the most comprehensive) and relax individual rules as you see fit. NEVER require all banks and caroms to be called...there is a reason that NO professional tour uses that rule. Just plain stupid. I highly recommend no three-foul rule, especially if you are mixing up the games. No one uses the three-fouls rule in 8-ball. Save yourself the headache and get rid of it altogether.

You will find that trying to institute a shot clock will eventually cause you to want to bash your head against the wall. That is unless you have access to one referee per table. My recommendation, if you have a serious problem with slow players and your races are long enough, is to note the start time of the matches and if an individual match is lagging behind a predetermined amount of time THEN you step in and use a shot clock to speed up play.

When I run tournaments I always note the start/stop times of matches because it gives me a good feeling as to what the average length of a match is so that I can effectively plan future tournaments to maximize race lengths and choose the correct bracket format. This info is crucial to running the best tourney possible.

I really like the multi-game concept. The only problem is that you cannot have fixed race lengths with a "players call game" format. A game of 8-ball takes almost twice as long as a game of 9-ball for players of this caliber. Another approach would be to assign games and race lengths based on the round of play on the bracket. Each step in the bracket would rotate the game, and each game would have its own race length.

Something that I do at the start of every league season is to have a fun doubles tournament that has a blind A/B draw. After the list of registered players is complete, I divide the list into two groups based on Fargo ratings and randomly draw one name from each list to be a doubles team. If an "A" and a "B" player or two "B" players request to play together, then I let them. This way no one team is too strong or too weak, and everyone gets to meet everyone else in the league. My league loves it. The only drawback to this approach is that it can be hard to fit late-comers into the bracket.
 
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Derek7646

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you are aiming for players whose avg Fargo rating is in the 500's, then these three rules are silly. Pick a national rule set (BCAPL rules are by far the most comprehensive) and relax individual rules as you see fit. NEVER require all banks and caroms to be called...there is a reason that NO professional tour uses that rule. Just plain stupid. I highly recommend no three-foul rule, especially if you are mixing up the games. No one uses the three-fouls rule in 8-ball. Save yourself the headache and get rid of it altogether.

You will find that trying to institute a shot clock will eventually cause you to want to bash your head against the wall. That is unless you have access to one referee per table. My recommendation, if you have a serious problem with slow players and your races are long enough, is to note the start time of the matches and if an individual match is lagging behind a predetermined amount of time THEN you step in and use a shot clock to speed up play.

When I run tournaments I always note the start/stop times of matches because it gives me a good feeling as to what the average length of a match is so that I can effectively plan future tournaments to maximize race lengths and choose the correct bracket format. This info is crucial to running the best tourney possible.

I really like the multi-game concept. The only problem is that you cannot have fixed race lengths with a "players call game" format. A game of 8-ball takes almost twice as long as a game of 9-ball for players of this caliber. Another approach would be to assign games and race lengths based on the round of play on the bracket. Each step in the bracket would rotate the game, and each game would have its own race length.

Something that I do at the start of every league season is to have a fun doubles tournament that has a blind A/B draw. After the list of registered players is complete, I divide the list into two groups based on Fargo ratings and randomly draw one name from each list to be a doubles team. If an "A" and a "B" player or two "B" players request to play together, then I let them. This way no one team is too strong or too weak, and everyone gets to meet everyone else in the league. My league loves it. The only drawback to this approach is that it can be hard to fit late-comers into the bracket.

The rules were call pocket, not rails/banks/ etc, maybe i said it in a confusing manner. In 9 ball, i meant if you are going to pocket the 9 in any pocket via carom/bank/combo or directly, you must call the pocket.

Good tip with the shot clock. I know its difficult to enforce, but i know of two players that would likely participate in my league that make me want to smash my face against a table when i play them, so i would probably just have to enforce it in games with those specific people/matches, as it is a non issue elsewhere.

That's an interesting idea with a different game per bracket but my rationale for having it be picked by the breaker in alternate break is so that each side gets the game that they see favorable, or enjoyable, to them. This bracket idea eliminates that. You know there is people who despise 9 ball and people who ONLY play 9 ball, so i am trying to cater to everyone and make it as diverse as possible, but i do see your point about the time constraints, assuming its more than just myself playing in this tournament haha.

That is a fun concept, i thought about a random draw until i realized the second the two best players got paired up that it would be the end of my tournament, but your separating of the tiers of players takes care of that problem. I may actually do that!

Thank you for your input
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There was a scotch doubles tournament like that in my area, and they divided people into A and B and randomly paired them. The room would open the tables for the tournament and, if there was over a certain number of players, add some money (I think $100).
 

Derek7646

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There was a scotch doubles tournament like that in my area, and they divided people into A and B and randomly paired them. The room would open the tables for the tournament and, if there was over a certain number of players, add some money (I think $100).

That's sounds great. I hope to do it along those lines and it would be great if i could get the room to sweeten the pot. Would be a decent paying tournament if we got 10+ teams with added money from the room.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been thinking...

... about how to deal with the pool hall hosting the tournament. I am not the room owner, so i am not sure if i should be requesting added prize money from them/free table time during the tournament (assuming i get a good turnout that buys food and drinks) OR offering them a small cut of the tournament buy-in's for them allowing me to run this tournament.

I am not making a statement so much as asking what the general feel is in this situation, as i have never done something like this before. A tournament brings in potential customers for them and its almost never busy Saturday afternoons anyway.

I am going to talk to the bartenders/room owner about it, but i wanted to know some pros, con's and talking points before bringing it up to them. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated :)
You shouldnt be requesting anything from the owner/ management. You should discuss partnering and as only one of you owns the house...you are kinda stuck with what you get.

Imo:
-Run.
-F that.
-Gtfo.
-What was I thinking?!

Far too big a pain in the ass for the benefit you'll derive.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Some rooms will expect to get paid in some way, but in my experience it is far more common for the room to be willing to pitch in to have an event that will bring in customers that they would not have otherwise had. For the few that want to be paid, it is usually in the form of a green fee (part of the entry fees, say $3 from every $13 entry fee). The ones willing to pitch in do it in a number of ways. Sometimes they add money to the prize fund. An example might be $50 added for over 10 players, and $100 added with over 18 players. Sometimes they will pay the tournament director in cash or with a bar tab, although it is typically pretty minimal, usually $20-$30. There are other creative things that can be done as well (I have seen hourly or all-tournament drink specials for the tournament players for example). Some rooms aren’t going to do either one--they won’t expect anything from you, nor are they going to pitch in. And a few are going to do both, where they may want a green fee, and they will also add money to the pot or help in some other way (which has never made much sense to me but I digress).

IMO the way you should approach the room is with the expectation that they are probably going to be thrilled to have the opportunity to get customer’s they wouldn’t have otherwise had and will be willing to pitch in in some way, or will at least want nothing from you. Almost no chance I would consider it if they want to be paid in some way but this is pretty unlikely IMO (they need you, and benefit, a whole lot more that you need them, and there are too many other rooms that would be glad to have you and would want nothing in return or would even pitch in to have the opportunity). What exactly you ask for is up to you, and you can also make it conditional if you choose such as “if I can show you that we can average at least twelve players a week, would you be willing to kick in a $15 bar tab for me and add $50 to the pot?” You should probably also see what they provide, or ask for, in regards to the other tournaments that happen in the room so you have a feel for what you might expect before you approach them.

Scotch doubles tournaments come with lots of problems and I have never seen one work well for very long. You have to decide if you want teammates to alternate every shot, or alternate each inning (each shot is most typical and arguably most fun, as well as most frustrating lol). You also have to decide if they have to keep the same rotation when going from one game to the next, or if they get to decide who goes first in each new game. I kind of like keeping the rotation throughout the match so that it mixes it up where the same person isn’t always breaking, or isn’t always the one taking that first tough shot after the other team breaks dry or plays safe, and it keeps the stronger teammate from being able to carry the team as much, but either way is a preference depending on what you want to accomplish.

You have to decide if you are going to allow teammates to confer about shot selection while it is their turn to shoot. If you don’t allow it, it takes a lot of the fun out of it and you may not have as much interest from people. If you do allow it, be prepared that it is going to make some matches go LONG. Teammates will confer surprisingly often, and for surprisingly looooong amounts of time. You almost have to have some kind of shot clock rule that can be imposed at least when/if needed if you are going to allow teammates to confer during their turns. My preference is to allow it because it makes it more fun for everyone, but have time limit rules of some kind in place and known to everyone in advance because rest assured they are going to be needed at times. If you want to limit how long teammates can confer before shooting to say like one minute, which will probably be necessary, it comes with its own problems because who would be in charge of the time clock for it? It usually ends up having to be kind of an honor system, and if one team is continually violating their one minute (or whatever it is) time limit for conferring the other team’s recourse will be to get you involved to make some kind of decision which is never going to ideal.

As already discussed in the thread, you have to decide if you want to allow people to pick their own partners, or if you want to assign partners by blind draw, or if you want to assign partners based on something else like trying to keep the teams as evenly skilled as possible. None of these is going to make everyone happy. As someone else said, I think I would allow people to pick their own partners if it makes a team of reasonable strength, and don’t allow two superstars to pair together. Pair up the rest of the people who don’t have a partner in ways that make the teams as even as possible. You might want to use FargoRate to improve the accuracy of the pairings as well as making it objective instead of subjective so people will have less basis for complaining (although being that they are pool players you are still going to get complaints on anything you do regarding anything and everything so be prepared for it because pool players are never happy lol).

I have never seen or heard of it being done, but if the matches are long enough (at least races to 5 I would think), you might consider allowing singles to play as a one man team if they spot the opposing team a game on the wire (because having to play with a partner is somewhat of a handicap and this helps to even it up). This might also be a good way to handle when you have an odd amount of players and no teammate for that last person who ordinarily wouldn’t get to play. Any time you have an odd amount of people, ask all the singles who don’t already have a partner if any of them want to volunteer to be the one man team that has to give the game on the wire. If none of the players who aren’t yet teamed up volunteers, do a blind draw to determine which one will be playing as the one man team giving up the game spot. Or just do the blind draw for who will have to be the one man team without even giving the option for anyone to volunteer, whichever you prefer. Like I said I have never heard of it being done and don't know for sure how it would need to be tweaked to work well (or even if it could work well at all) but I think it might have enough promise to be worth experimenting with.

You don’t want these to be two hour tournaments because then it doesn’t help the room much, but on the other hand you don’t want it to go too long either because people only want to give up so much of their weekend time. I think planning for it to end by 5pm at the latest would be a good idea so people have time to at least get home in time for dinner and/or on to their other evening plans.

If you want to attract the top players, have higher entry fees and make the payouts top heavy, but you will get fewer players. Sometimes paying out too deep can cut down on the amount of players you get too. The best compromise to maximize participation is usually a low or moderate entry, and paying out about a quarter of the field with the money spread out pretty evenly. Often the lowest team in the money would have a prize just equivalent to getting their money back, especially when you get to pay a lot of places because you had a large field, and/or especially if you were paying closer to a third of the field instead of a quarter.

As has already been suggested, using BCAPL rules is probably be best. They are the most comprehensive, the most sensible, most people already know them (and they are easily teachable for those who don’t), they will reduce arguments, they are arguably the most fun, and they can easily be referred to in writing online when needed (or in a book for those that have them). However, if nobody in your area uses them and some other rule set like APA is what everybody uses, you may not have much choice but to use the popular local rules but I would try to use BCAPL rules if possible because they really are better.
 

Derek7646

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some rooms will expect to get paid in some way, but in my experience it is far more common for the room to be willing to pitch in to have an event that will bring in customers that they would not have otherwise had. For the few that want to be paid, it is usually in the form of a green fee (part of the entry fees, say $3 from every $13 entry fee). The ones willing to pitch in do it in a number of ways. Sometimes they add money to the prize fund. An example might be $50 added for over 10 players, and $100 added with over 18 players. Sometimes they will pay the tournament director in cash or with a bar tab, although it is typically pretty minimal, usually $20-$30. There are other creative things that can be done as well (I have seen hourly or all-tournament drink specials for the tournament players for example). Some rooms aren’t going to do either one--they won’t expect anything from you, nor are they going to pitch in. And a few are going to do both, where they may want a green fee, and they will also add money to the pot or help in some other way (which has never made much sense to me but I digress).

IMO the way you should approach the room is with the expectation that they are probably going to be thrilled to have the opportunity to get customer’s they wouldn’t have otherwise had and will be willing to pitch in in some way, or will at least want nothing from you. Almost no chance I would consider it if they want to be paid in some way but this is pretty unlikely IMO (they need you, and benefit, a whole lot more that you need them, and there are too many other rooms that would be glad to have you and would want nothing in return or would even pitch in to have the opportunity). What exactly you ask for is up to you, and you can also make it conditional if you choose such as “if I can show you that we can average at least twelve players a week, would you be willing to kick in a $15 bar tab for me and add $50 to the pot?” You should probably also see what they provide, or ask for, in regards to the other tournaments that happen in the room so you have a feel for what you might expect before you approach them.

Scotch doubles tournaments come with lots of problems and I have never seen one work well for very long. You have to decide if you want teammates to alternate every shot, or alternate each inning (each shot is most typical and arguably most fun, as well as most frustrating lol). You also have to decide if they have to keep the same rotation when going from one game to the next, or if they get to decide who goes first in each new game. I kind of like keeping the rotation throughout the match so that it mixes it up where the same person isn’t always breaking, or isn’t always the one taking that first tough shot after the other team breaks dry or plays safe, and it keeps the stronger teammate from being able to carry the team as much, but either way is a preference depending on what you want to accomplish.

You have to decide if you are going to allow teammates to confer about shot selection while it is their turn to shoot. If you don’t allow it, it takes a lot of the fun out of it and you may not have as much interest from people. If you do allow it, be prepared that it is going to make some matches go LONG. Teammates will confer surprisingly often, and for surprisingly looooong amounts of time. You almost have to have some kind of shot clock rule that can be imposed at least when/if needed if you are going to allow teammates to confer during their turns. My preference is to allow it because it makes it more fun for everyone, but have time limit rules of some kind in place and known to everyone in advance because rest assured they are going to be needed at times. If you want to limit how long teammates can confer before shooting to say like one minute, which will probably be necessary, it comes with its own problems because who would be in charge of the time clock for it? It usually ends up having to be kind of an honor system, and if one team is continually violating their one minute (or whatever it is) time limit for conferring the other team’s recourse will be to get you involved to make some kind of decision which is never going to ideal.

As already discussed in the thread, you have to decide if you want to allow people to pick their own partners, or if you want to assign partners by blind draw, or if you want to assign partners based on something else like trying to keep the teams as evenly skilled as possible. None of these is going to make everyone happy. As someone else said, I think I would allow people to pick their own partners if it makes a team of reasonable strength, and don’t allow two superstars to pair together. Pair up the rest of the people who don’t have a partner in ways that make the teams as even as possible. You might want to use FargoRate to improve the accuracy of the pairings as well as making it objective instead of subjective so people will have less basis for complaining (although being that they are pool players you are still going to get complaints on anything you do regarding anything and everything so be prepared for it because pool players are never happy lol).

I have never seen or heard of it being done, but if the matches are long enough (at least races to 5 I would think), you might consider allowing singles to play as a one man team if they spot the opposing team a game on the wire (because having to play with a partner is somewhat of a handicap and this helps to even it up). This might also be a good way to handle when you have an odd amount of players and no teammate for that last person who ordinarily wouldn’t get to play. Any time you have an odd amount of people, ask all the singles who don’t already have a partner if any of them want to volunteer to be the one man team that has to give the game on the wire. If none of the players who aren’t yet teamed up volunteers, do a blind draw to determine which one will be playing as the one man team giving up the game spot. Or just do the blind draw for who will have to be the one man team without even giving the option for anyone to volunteer, whichever you prefer. Like I said I have never heard of it being done and don't know for sure how it would need to be tweaked to work well (or even if it could work well at all) but I think it might have enough promise to be worth experimenting with.

You don’t want these to be two hour tournaments because then it doesn’t help the room much, but on the other hand you don’t want it to go too long either because people only want to give up so much of their weekend time. I think planning for it to end by 5pm at the latest would be a good idea so people have time to at least get home in time for dinner and/or on to their other evening plans.

If you want to attract the top players, have higher entry fees and make the payouts top heavy, but you will get fewer players. Sometimes paying out too deep can cut down on the amount of players you get too. The best compromise to maximize participation is usually a low or moderate entry, and paying out about a quarter of the field with the money spread out pretty evenly. Often the lowest team in the money would have a prize just equivalent to getting their money back, especially when you get to pay a lot of places because you had a large field, and/or especially if you were paying closer to a third of the field instead of a quarter.

As has already been suggested, using BCAPL rules is probably be best. They are the most comprehensive, the most sensible, most people already know them (and they are easily teachable for those who don’t), they will reduce arguments, they are arguably the most fun, and they can easily be referred to in writing online when needed (or in a book for those that have them). However, if nobody in your area uses them and some other rule set like APA is what everybody uses, you may not have much choice but to use the popular local rules but I would try to use BCAPL rules if possible because they really are better.

Thank you for your input, this was what i was imagining when i started moving ahead with this idea. If i was a room owner, i would want to do something to maximize table time/overall revenue on my slowest days, ie: weekdays 11-5 and Saturday, 11-6, as Sunday is free pool for league players at Stix, so there is almost always people around Sunday. Saturday seems to be the forgotten pool day, at least over here. If there was something to draw players in, everybody wins, including the room. I'm also not looking to profit or get free drinks, if they offered me $50 cash or bar tab, i would add it to the prize pool or get community pizza's.

Yeah, i was thinking alternate shot, as i agree it is the most fun and fair (sometimes). My buddy thinks its a riot to only leave me bank shots after i get him a duck, but i wouldn't have it any other way.

Agreed on the time keeping, that's why i mentioned it initially, as i agree with you that a lot of the fun is me telling my partner where i want to be on the next ball to get him good on the 9 and he again, leaves me a bank shot because hes a jokester.

Agreed again, i saw a format for a partners tournament coming up in November that had a max handicap of 1150 fargo, which seemed to be perfect for me. If you have a 630 A player, their partner at best, is going to be a 500 C/C+ player, which is exactly what i am looking for. Or, you could have two strong B's etc. I was thinking something along the lines of A and a C or two B's (1150 fargo max). Pick your own teammate if you have one, if you don't, you can show up and we can try and find you a like minded peer that doesn't break the mold with two A players or two C players. And yeah, you're definitely correct that no matter what i do, people will be angry. I have captained 4-5 teams in leagues and ran into this regarding payouts/playing the right person to win the match, vs the person who wants to play.

Good call with the end time, that's what i was thinking as well, as Stix has an 11-6pm special on Saturday's for $10, after that, some bangers come around with their girlfriends and they can earn decent Saturday night hourly table fees and food/drink revenue. Ending by 5, 6 at the latest would definitely be ideal.

Yeah, that is the exact structure i was going to use. If we get 10 teams, 2 get paid out 65%, 35%. 14 teams, 3-4 get paid out etc. It definitely is a balancing act, as i don't want open players but i don't want people that are going to get stomped week after week. I am hoping for high C's - low A's and everything in between, so i was thinking $50-60 per team, would be a reasonable point that would have enough cash to interest people and not deter the masses. Many guys are fine with $100 a set/$10-20 per game cash game wise, so i don't think this will deter many of the crowd i am trying to cater to.

I am not familiar with those rules but i imagine they are close to the rules i mentioned earlier, as i despire APA rules myself. Slop has no place in 8 ball and i don't like being married to the break, takes away half the strategy of the game.

Thanks for your input!
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Assuming you can get work out the logistics with the room owner to get this started, there are many questions you need to figure out before you jump in to this.

Is it going to be alternate shot format or alternate turn format? One of the biggest issues is whether it's going to be handicapped or not, and if not, will players get to choose their own partners? If not, will that be done randomly, or ideally, do you have the knowledge of the participating players to fairly rank the players into the top half and lower half in terms of skill level, then randomly draw pills to pair up a top half player with a lower half player?

If you allow players to choose their own partners, unless you have a room with a number of evenly skilled players (very unlikely), or unless you handicap the teams based on the skill levels of each team, the top players will pair up with each other, the tournament will not be very competitive, the same few teams will dominate every event, and the tournament will soon die out.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, i was thinking alternate shot, as i agree it is the most fun and fair (sometimes). My buddy thinks its a riot to only leave me bank shots after i get him a duck, but i wouldn't have it any other way.

Agreed on the time keeping, that's why i mentioned it initially, as i agree with you that a lot of the fun is me telling my partner where i want to be on the next ball to get him good on the 9 and he again, leaves me a bank shot because hes a jokester.

I'm out.

How many times can one listen to the same comedy bit and be entertained? I guess 2 or 3.

Same with doubles, especially scotch.
 

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
You can start off with the bartender or manager to get an idea of receptiveness, but in the end you need to talk with the room owner about your proposal.

Reception can vary from added money and full sponsorship, free tables to hold your event, to assessing a green fee.
 
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