So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

JB Cases

JB Cases

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Silver Member
justinb386 said:
I do not feel like reading through all of the replies, so sorry if this link has already been posted, but here is the last 8 minutes of that match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

Hall missed 2 very easy shots. It sure does look to me like he dumped. This is a very seasoned player. These pro's do not miss easy shots like that (for any kind of money). The pro's have much stronger mental games, and just do not make silly errors like that (I do not think).
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If I wanted to spend the time I would show you hundreds of easy shots missed by pros just by going through easily available youtube matches.

I sat ten feet from Tony Ellin and watched him miss the easiest cut to the corner you could imagine against Hopkins, resulting in an $8000 loss in the difference in prize money.

In fact, just a few weeks ago Karl Boyes missed an easy 8 ball in the World Cup's final game. Luckily for him the result was safe and so they won that game and the tournament. Had the odds been 20:1 for Holland winning then we might be talking about Karl's "obvious" attempt to dump the match instead of talking about how anyone can be affected by nerves at any level. Even a seasoned player like Karl can get the yips when there is $30,000 on the line.
 
sjm

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
If I wanted to spend the time I would show you hundreds of easy shots missed by pros just by going through easily available youtube matches.

I sat ten feet from Tony Ellin and watched him miss the easiest cut to the corner you could imagine against Hopkins, resulting in an $8000 loss in the difference in prize money.

In fact, just a few weeks ago Karl Boyes missed an easy 8 ball in the World Cup's final game. Luckily for him the result was safe and so they won that game and the tournament. Had the odds been 20:1 for Holland winning then we might be talking about Karl's "obvious" attempt to dump the match instead of talking about how anyone can be affected by nerves at any level. Even a seasoned player like Karl can get the yips when there is $30,000 on the line.
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Yes, but even if you dedicate the rest of your life to it, you won't find much footage of Buddy Hall jumping up on his shot multiple times in the final racks of a high purse tournament.
 
zpele

zpele

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
If I wanted to spend the time I would show you hundreds of easy shots missed by pros just by going through easily available youtube matches.

I sat ten feet from Tony Ellin and watched him miss the easiest cut to the corner you could imagine against Hopkins, resulting in an $8000 loss in the difference in prize money.

In fact, just a few weeks ago Karl Boyes missed an easy 8 ball in the World Cup's final game. Luckily for him the result was safe and so they won that game and the tournament. Had the odds been 20:1 for Holland winning then we might be talking about Karl's "obvious" attempt to dump the match instead of talking about how anyone can be affected by nerves at any level. Even a seasoned player like Karl can get the yips when there is $30,000 on the line.
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The dumping was not just on the last match. The whole tournament was rigged and that can be seen in the other matches as well the last one is just the most famous.

That being said, Hall makes it very obvious because of how he changes a lot of things in his stroke compared to when he is trying.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

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Silver Member
zpele said:
The dumping was not just on the last match. The whole tournament was rigged and that can be seen in the other matches as well the last one is just the most famous.

That being said, Hall makes it very obvious because of how he changes a lot of things in his stroke compared to when he is trying.
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I disagree for all the reasons I have stated in detail in this thread already. I have analyzed each match and all the games and stated my points.

I have seen nothing that adequately refutes those points based on analyzing the games and shots.
 
Razor

Razor

Lex Parsimoniae
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
Really, then explain why they had it in the same casino for two more years. And since then hundreds of events have been held in casinos.

Stan James and other prominent bookmakers book bets for all the major snooker events. As well they book bets on all the major pool events held by matchroom including Mosconi Cup even when it's held in a casino such as the MGM grand.

Face it, pool is simply too small time for American sports books to mess with.

All this talk about dumping and there were only 11 bets booked on Lebron? All these triple smart pool players could only get 11 bets down?

You're really a sad negative person. I hope you never serve jury duty because you would convict on the slimmest of evidence so you could be home for lunch.

Here, you can enjoy a movie that may widen your view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rInISHcZcPo
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John,

I have nothing to add regarding the topic of this thread, but I am curious as to the movie you referenced above. The link leads me to a terminated YouTube account, but would like to know what it was...it might interest me.

Thanks.

~Razor
 
S

(((Satori)))

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sjm said:
Yes, but even if you dedicate the rest of your life to it, you won't find much footage of Buddy Hall jumping up on his shot multiple times in the final racks of a high purse tournament.
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Jumping up is a natural reaction when you are not mentally set for the shot.

If he wanted to miss on purpose I think he would have stayed down to make sure his aim was precise.
 
S

SakuJack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
In fact, just a few weeks ago Karl Boyes missed an easy 8 ball in the World Cup's final game. Luckily for him the result was safe and so they won that game and the tournament. Had the odds been 20:1 for Holland winning then we might be talking about Karl's "obvious" attempt to dump the match instead of talking about how anyone can be affected by nerves at any level. Even a seasoned player like Karl can get the yips when there is $30,000 on the line.
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The eight ball Boyes missed isn't even comparable to the shots Hall missed in this game.

Honestly, I think people either need to be very biased, deluded, or just kind of stupid to believe Hall wasn't dumping in this match. From the shots his missed and his ridiculously bad acting after he misses them, as clear as day what's going on. It's not even worth arguing with those who deny it, IMO.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

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SakuJack said:
The eight ball Boyes missed isn't even comparable to the shots Hall missed in this game.

Honestly, I think people either need to be very biased, deluded, or just kind of stupid to believe Hall wasn't dumping in this match. From the shots his missed and his ridiculously bad acting after he misses them, as clear as day what's going on. It's not even worth arguing with those who deny it, IMO.
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Then why are you here arguing? Forget about Boyes, EVERY PLAYER has dogged easy shots in pressure matches.

It isn't "clear as day" and if any of you had the balls to bet on it I would prove that it's not clear at all.

What you have IN MY OPINION is called confirmation bias. Since someone introduced the idea that it could be a dump then you see a dump in every missed shot.

IF no one ever told you that there was a dump (in their opinion) then I am 100% certain that you wouldn't have looked at this match footage and came on here and said, "hey guys that 91 COC looked like a dump to me".

Now, it might have been a dump. Totally possible, people have been known to do a lot of stupid things for a lot less money.

BUT - again, in my opinion, with just the match footage to go on, it is not clear AT ALL that this was a dump.

Matt Braun said it wasn't a dump. Buddy Hall said it wasn't a dump. The match analysis doesn't show it. The surrounding stories aren't consistent and don't add up.

Sooooo......the only thing clear as day is that some of you are ready to accuse and convict based on evidence that would be shredded in court.
 
The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
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The fix was in.... Several players are on the "off the record" comment section that were involved... I can name names and recite the quotes if I need to John.... I thought I already had bumped heads with you over this but what the hey.. We can go again..... I would bar all participentsn from that tourney from the HOF aside from Hopkins as he was said to not have been involved or refused to be involved according to at least 2 players involved.... It was so long ago that it won't matter in a few more years regardless as Vegas won't have to fade any of them... Assuming Vegas still cares....

Chris
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

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Silver Member
The Renfro said:
The fix was in.... Several players are on the "off the record" comment section that were involved... I can name names and recite the quotes if I need to John.... I thought I already had bumped heads with you over this but what the hey.. We can go again..... I would bar all participentsn from that tourney from the HOF aside from Hopkins as he was said to not have been involved or refused to be involved according to at least 2 players involved.... It was so long ago that it won't matter in a few more years regardless as Vegas won't have to fade any of them... Assuming Vegas still cares....

Chris
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We discussed it. As I said anything is possible. What I take exception to, as I have repeatedly said, is the idea that one can "see" it based on the video alone. I wholeheartedly disagree with that and would be willing to bet say a grand that I could ask many people to analyze the videos and the majority of them wouldn't mention a dump when talking about the play.

Conversely if I then showed the same video to another group and introduced the possibility of a dump then probably most of the participants would claim to "see" it.

Vegas didn't care then - the COC was held for two more years in the same casino. Matt Braun didn't bar anyone.

I am happy to agree to disagree. But until the players come out and admit it publicly any claims are simply hearsay. Jay Helfert wanted to bet me $10,000 that he could prove it and I guess my only question is IF he is willing to say that it was 100% a dump, meaning he is publicly accusing Buddy Hall, Mike Lebron, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe and David Howard of felony theft and fraud, then why not just go ahead and provide the indisputable proof and we can put it to rest completely?

I have no skin in the game here, if I am wrong and proved wrong with actual evidence that is beyond doubt then I will have no problem saying so. Being wrong isn't a crime, being accused of a crime when none was committed however is defaming.
 
O

Old Nine Baller

Banned
JB Cases said:
If I wanted to spend the time I would show you hundreds of easy shots missed by pros just by going through easily available youtube matches.
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John,

It's always a surprise when a top player misses an easy shot but it happens every day. Everybody misses and that's a fact but I want you to look at Hall's missed combo here. He needed to cut the 8 to his right slightly but instead he cut it to his left by a large amount. One of the top 9 Ball players ever and he's what, 4-5 feet from the 8 and he cuts it the wrong way? By a large amount?


111.jpg

222.jpg


The 8 hit the siderail here and the 9 hit the endrail here. The 8 should've gone to his right, not his left.

333.jpg
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Old Nine Baller said:
John,

It's always a surprise when a top player misses an easy shot but it happens every day. Everybody misses and that's a fact but I want you to look at Hall's missed combo here. He needed to cut the 8 to his right slightly but instead he cut it to his left by a large amount. One of the top 9 Ball players ever and he's what, 4-5 feet from the 8 and he cuts it the wrong way? By a large amount?


View attachment 357876

View attachment 357877


The 8 hit the siderail here and the 9 hit the endrail here. The 8 should've gone to his right, not his left.

View attachment 357878
Click to expand...

I was ten feet away from the table and when I saw that shot I KNEW! :rolleyes:
 
S

smashmouth

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
We discussed it. As I said anything is possible. What I take exception to, as I have repeatedly said, is the idea that one can "see" it based on the video alone. I wholeheartedly disagree with that and would be willing to bet say a grand that I could ask many people to analyze the videos and the majority of them wouldn't mention a dump when talking about the play.

Conversely if I then showed the same video to another group and introduced the possibility of a dump then probably most of the participants would claim to "see" it.

Vegas didn't care then - the COC was held for two more years in the same casino. Matt Braun didn't bar anyone.

I am happy to agree to disagree. But until the players come out and admit it publicly any claims are simply hearsay. Jay Helfert wanted to bet me $10,000 that he could prove it and I guess my only question is IF he is willing to say that it was 100% a dump, meaning he is publicly accusing Buddy Hall, Mike Lebron, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe and David Howard of felony theft and fraud, then why not just go ahead and provide the indisputable proof and we can put it to rest completely?

I have no skin in the game here, if I am wrong and proved wrong with actual evidence that is beyond doubt then I will have no problem saying so. Being wrong isn't a crime, being accused of a crime when none was committed however is defaming.
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lmfao, you're so wrong, there won't be proof to "your" satisfaction, get a clue
 
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