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02-13-2015, 10:51 AM

Regarding who was and still is the...

Ronnie "Fast Eddie" Allen has gone public, saying in a recording made in June, 2006 that Harold Worst was the greatest pool player he ever saw. According to Fast Eddie, there is no doubt that Mosconi was the best at straight pool, and no one in his opinion could have beaten Buddy Hall or Richie Florence at nine-ball when they were in stroke. But Mosconi, Hall and Florence were one-game specialists. Even the great Efren Reyes plays primarily two games: nine-ball and one-pocket. Within the last 50 years there has been only one player who was a world champion at three-cushion billiards, nine-ball, one-pocket, straight pool and snooker: Harold Worst. Allen goes on to tell an amusing and illustrative story. It was around 1965 and the world's greatest pool hustlers were in Jacksonville for a tournament. They included Luther "Wimpy" Lassiter, Eddie "The Knoxville Bear" Taylor, "Cowboy" Jimmy Moore, Weenie Beanie, Squirrel, Joe "The Meatman" Balsis, "Handsome" Danny Jones, and a young, larcenous Fast Eddie. Suddenly a Western Union messenger delivers a singing telegram, saying that someone named Harold Worst is at the Biltmore Hotel and will play any taker a session for $1,000. It was "the damndest thing," according to Allen. So he called Worst's room and told him to "bring plenty of money" because there were twenty people lined up to play him. When Worst showed up, he was "the essence of a gentleman," wearing a suit and tie. He didn't bother to practice, and "never hit a ball." He just tossed $1,000 on the table and asked who he was playing. The hustlers decided to put up Moore, and Worst beat him 11-6. Then Allen suggested that they put up Wimpy, because "Lassiter ain't never lost playing nine-ball to nobody." But Worst beat Lassiter, 11-9 and 11-10. At this point, according to Allen, "This guy has not missed a ball, so we don't know what to do." They decide to resort to begging and stealing. The hustlers only get their money back by persuading Worst to spot Allen the seven ball. From that point forward, they either dodge Worst (as Lassiter and Taylor did), or demand the mortal nuts (as Allen did more than once), or they send "undercover" players to his home room in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and try to trick him into bad games. But from what I have been able to gather, Worst always won playing head-up, and even when giving up the mortal nuts, he sometimes still managed to win.

Ronnie Allen: "In my professional opinion, Harold Worst was the greatest pool player who ever lived, or ever will live ... He's got my vote."

Artie Bodendorfer again: "The two best nine-ball players would be Wimpy and Efren. Harold Worst would be the underdog against both players playing nine-ball. But he could still win. And playing three cushion billiards or snooker it would be all Harold Worst. And balkline and straight rail and so on. But if Harold Worst would have keep playing, he would have been number one. And Worst was a great shooter ... Worst was a complete monster. And he was fearless to go with it. And Everlino had a good opinion of players. And I think Ronnie would have taken Worst to. You can ask him if he is at the Hall of Fame dinner."

Artie Bodendorfer: "The players back then were better and Efren would not have won 5 in a row. We have to give him credit for his great accomplishment. But even back then a lot of the best one-pocket players did not play in the tournaments. And I would like to ask just for myself. Did Efren win 5 one-pocket tournaments in a row? And it's always hard to pick out the best player and people go by their record and their performance. Did Efren bet his own money against the top player and why not? And Harold Worst was way more talented in all the pool games and billiard games and snooker; he played everything world class. It sure would have been great to watch Harold Worst and Efren play all those games against each other. And if they both had to bet their own money, I would make Harold Worst a 2 to1 favorite."

Artie Bodendorfer: "Harold Worst was the greatest all around player in life, playing nine-ball, one-pocket, cushion billiards and snooker."

Artie Bodendorfer: "Playing nine-ball, three cushion billiards and snooker, Harold Worst would be stealing. Nobody in the world would have a chance at those three games. Harold Worst would be in a class by himself. And he would have robed Efren. And Harold Worst played good enough nine-ball to win at all three games. He was my favorite. And he could shoot and even all those great players like Taylor, Bugs and Ronnie, they all feared him, and for the coup de grace he bet his own money. Harold Worst was all by himself number ONE. And he was an intelligent classy man. And he won the all-around at the Star Dust the last two years of his life. With Cancer. And he is the most talented player I ever seen. World champion class player in all games. Even straight pool. And he would have been the best in one-pocket. If you don't believe me ask that little rascal Ronnie. No player ever got the respect that Harold Worst got from the top players. He could make the balls talk. Nobody is close to him. And if he would have been around in today's world, he would have been another Tiger Woods. And he would have played 7 or 8 games world class. And there is no debating. Harold Worst was like Joe Louis or Sugar Ray Robinson. And He had enough balls for 20 people. He is the best ever in life!"


Jay Helfert: "I have a lot of respect for Artie when he talks about Harold Worst. I've always said when asked who the best player I ever saw was, that it was HAROLD WORST! My stock answer all these years was Worst was Best! Everything Artie says is true. No top player of his era wanted to even discuss playing a money game with him. Even Lassiter drew the line playing Worst 9-Ball for money. He was afraid that he might lose his rep as the best 9-Ball player. Worst was unique, kind of like Efren in a way. If you showed him a game with sticks and balls, he would master it fairly quickly. If he wanted to be the best one-pocket player in the world, Ronnie would have been in trouble. And you know how strong I think Ronnie was. Harold Worst was a unique man, a real man's man. Courteous, humble but proud. And like Artie said, he wasn't afraid to bet his own money. In fact, he wouldn't consider having a backer. That would have been demeaning to him. Probably the closest to Worst was Rags Fitzpatrick from the 50's. ALL the players said he was unbeatable. I'll never forget the final year (1965 I believe) that Worst won the Stardust tourney. He looked anemic to me, having lost so much weight from his once healthy and robust frame. No one knew how sick he was. He was not one to complain or make excuses. He won anyway. And only a few months later he was gone."


This might be a testament to who the, 'Greatest All Around Player of All time' is!

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02-13-2015, 12:10 PM

Its hard to understand the need for a two page, rambling bunch of quotes, on a subject EVERYONE agrees on ?...One can only assume, that Mr. 3??, is just so ecstatic that he finally found something to be RIGHT about, that he figures it is worth wasting our time, (and his ink) pointing out the obvious !...Absolutely amazing ! ..

I fully expect him to next, spend a few pages telling us how HE has discovered that Walt Disney, is the most famous cartoonist of our time ! (hopefully he'll bore the guys at NPR
with it )...One must seriously question, his ability to form rational thoughts ?

PS..I will pay big $$, to anyone who can replace 'girls', with 'Mr.3-IQ' !..

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02-13-2015, 02:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
Lenny, I think you're doing the apples and oranges thing again.

If Scott , in his prime, played Artie in his prime, do you really think there would be any
weight involved?

And I think Ronnie, IN HIS PRIME, gets the cash over everybody at one-hole.

And as an all-round player, the only man that could hang with Ronnie was Harold Worst.

But prime vs prime is the only thing that makes sense in judging players from different eras.
I am not sure which is worse though, apples to oranges with people who actually played regardless of their age or these fantasy match ups. I have seen Scott play countless hours for money as Dick probably saw Ronnie, I trust Dick and his judgement on Ronnie having an edge over Frost because he has seen both in their prime. I know I certainly have seen Scott run out from the impossible for more money then the majority make yearly on this forum.

Artie is going to have his fans from Chicago as Ronnie will have his fans, these threads are not that interesting because its people saying my dad will kick your dads ass. We have people forming opinions based on others stories and heresy having never seen Ronnie, Artie or even Worst play so that is not very educated.

Did Dick see Artie play or Mr 3 see Ronnie play, did either see Worst play? They might have saw them, many members on this forum have not. The good thing about debates like Marciano vs Ali vs Tyson and crap like that is we actually have video to compare but little to nothing on these guys. I hope one day I am not on this forum debating if Scott Frost would have beat a new in his prime Dirk Diggler in the year 2050.


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02-13-2015, 02:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr3cushion View Post
Maybe Scott can come here and speak for himself! On the topic of this thread and HIS thoughts on RA and Artie's game!

Here's how Artie looked in His prime, this is the ONLY known video of Artie hitting balls, back in the day!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbIgMzAXaU0

It wasn't THIS Artie when they played, I can guarantee you that!

RA and Artie were way past their primes and getting huge spots from my understanding so his thoughts might be a bit irrelevant since those gambling matches are being dismissed. As for Artie and his highlight reel, here are some of mine. Maybe I had a chance vs Artie in his prime, lmao.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBb7ANfx5ug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuM_HTxW0HU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxU14VHQFOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEExdCCNeRc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Mhs5bW8eI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL0kDfELqBc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL2JghLzlCQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5JKMpnHRik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqVT9GPmHJA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koELts8EmeE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoCptMcj_BU


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Allen Hopkins was the best all around player and Nick Varner was a close 2nd.
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Arrow Allen Hopkins was the best all around player and Nick Varner was a close 2nd. - 02-13-2015, 02:52 PM

Many people know Allen Hopkins was the best all around player and Nick Varner was a close 2nd.



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02-13-2015, 03:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Fast Lenny View Post
Just being factual Lenny, You'd have plenty of chances. To RACK the BALLS!
BTW, I've seen RA play, not Worst! Don't need to when the facts are perfectly clear!
P.S. What was your reasoning for bringing up that Scott played RA and Artie with big spots when they were clearly NO where near their speeds in their respective primes?

P.P.S. Like I said, I've seen Scott play via streams many times, and I've been in the middle with Artie when He played His best, Artie would have smothered Scott to a frustration point that he's NEVER experienced before! Hence forth, he'd be taking a lot of 'fliers!'

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02-13-2015, 04:20 PM

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Originally Posted by mr3cushion View Post
Just being factual Lenny, You'd have plenty of chances. To RACK the BALLS!
BTW, I've seen RA play, not Worst! Don't need to when the facts are perfectly clear!
P.S. What was your reasoning for bringing up that Scott played RA and Artie with big spots when they were clearly NO where near their speeds in their respective primes?

P.P.S. Like I said, I've seen Scott play via streams many times, and I've been in the middle with Artie when He played His best, Artie would have smothered Scott to a frustration point that he's NEVER experienced before! Hence forth, he'd be taking a lot of 'fliers!'
You saw him via streams? I am assuming in tournament play or maybe it was when he was a zombie playing Alex. Ask Artie who would give him the toughest time playing one pocket, Ronnie, Efren or Frost. Who do you think would be his toughest opponent? The moves that players knew then which they used against the unknowingly are now common knowledge in the world of one pocket, are you saying Artie played shots that players do not play today? Back in the day it was a good game to hustle, sounds easy because we each have a pocket and need to make 8 balls in them so it sounds easy right. Good players who play guys who don't know how to play one pocket can appear to be on another planet. Frost best move is 8 and out but he knows all the moves in the moving department. I laughed when I heard a guy say he moves just as good as Scott but Scott runs too many balls, if so then just play Scott 4 and stop or something like that. Some people just are stuck in the past, please don't let me be one of them when the time comes.


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02-13-2015, 04:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Fast Lenny View Post
You saw him via streams? I am assuming in tournament play or maybe it was when he was a zombie playing Alex. Ask Artie who would give him the toughest time playing one pocket, Ronnie, Efren or Frost. Who do you think would be his toughest opponent?
I don't think he thinks that.

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02-13-2015, 04:43 PM

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Many people know Allen Hopkins was the best all around player and Nick Varner was a close 2nd.

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02-13-2015, 05:45 PM

...Lendon ol' bud...Puleeeeze do not waste your time, trying to debate 'anything' with Mr3??..(I have wasted enough time for both of us.) His extremely biased opinions, are based on his very limited exposure, to his Chicago heroes...Even if you admit Artie was a great player, Mr3 will insist, over and over and over again, that he was a "perfect, mistake-free God" !...While Mr3?? admits he was never even a 'shortstop' 1P player, he will never admit he did NOT play well enough, to even accurately 'rate' top players !

You are wise to appreciate the opinions of people like Dr. Bill, Grady, CJ, Scott, or myself..as we all DID play well enough to see the 'finer points' of ALL pool games, that he can never see !...And yes, you too will get old (if you're lucky) and form your own opinions..
I believe you may already have been to more different pool rooms, than Mr3?? OR Artie !..The more you 'get around', the more you will realize, that every pool room in the world, has at least one 'Bill Smith' in it, who will try to convince you he "knows it all"!....Some are just more unbearable than others !


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02-13-2015, 05:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Fast Lenny View Post
You saw him via streams? I am assuming in tournament play or maybe it was when he was a zombie playing Alex. Ask Artie who would give him the toughest time playing one pocket, Ronnie, Efren or Frost. Who do you think would be his toughest opponent? The moves that players knew then which they used against the unknowingly are now common knowledge in the world of one pocket, are you saying Artie played shots that players do not play today? Back in the day it was a good game to hustle, sounds easy because we each have a pocket and need to make 8 balls in them so it sounds easy right. Good players who play guys who don't know how to play one pocket can appear to be on another planet. Frost best move is 8 and out but he knows all the moves in the moving department. I laughed when I heard a guy say he moves just as good as Scott but Scott runs too many balls, if so then just play Scott 4 and stop or something like that. Some people just are stuck in the past, please don't let me be one of them when the time comes.
I just got off the phone with Artie, this is exactly what He said, and I quote with out any hesitation from him, "Efren without a doubt!, would be the MOST difficult!"

I hope your question was answered to your satisfaction!
  
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02-13-2015, 08:08 PM

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Originally Posted by mr3cushion View Post
I just got off the phone with Artie, this is exactly what He said, and I quote with out any hesitation from him, "Efren without a doubt!, would be the MOST difficult!"

I hope your question was answered to your satisfaction!
About 6 months ago you wrote this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr3cushion View Post
In red, Lenny, is where the issue lies! Scott has NEVER had the type of "defense" Artie could lay down! And, from the matches I've watched Scott play as far as his "defensive" play, Artie would be a, 9-5 favorite in the that department!

Artie also did say, "Scott would just be harder to beat, 6 ahead. thane Efren and RA," not that He wouldn't beat him!


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02-13-2015, 08:10 PM

Here is what Artie wrote also. Read the last paragraph. +1 for Lenny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Bodendorfer View Post
Scott plays a ver strong agressinve game of one pocket. But to play his style you have to have his ability if you dont have his talant and Ability that style will not work. And thats a great tournament style too. Because its fast and all ofense And that is what aggressive offensive players like. BUt he takes a lot of chances and gambels. And a week player can upset him in a match better then a control player. Because of the mistakes it its all offense. Were the other style you can lock him up.

And you have to work on his patence. Because he is all geared up. And you have to brack him down and his accracey.And irratate and frustrate him if that can be done. Because he is very strong minded to. And he does not look like you can aggrevate him or eratate him because he loves to play. And he is a good player to bet on. But he has a good onepocket mind. And their are not to many players in his leauge and the ones that are age is catching up with them.

And he has a better one pocket mind for the game than Efren. I am going by the shoots the shoot. And Efren makes more mistakes. BUt ability wise I give Efren the edge. BUt right now Scott Frost has the one pocket ability now to. HE has what you call one pocket shooting ability. And he still looks like he can get better. And I would have had a hard time beatting him 6 games ahead because what I have seen he also is a great indurence player. I think he will stand up and play great for a long time. I dont kid myself I see what players have.

And Scott FRost would be harder for me to beat playing 6 games ahead then Ronnie and Efren. Because Scott has that extra in him that Ronnie and Efren doesnt show me in a long session. And I no Ronnie would have thrown the toil in. And I dont no why the keep saying that Ronnie is better then BUgs When Bugs beat Ronnie 2 out of 3 when the were both in their prime what else do you have to go by...


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02-13-2015, 08:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Fast Lenny View Post
Here is what Artie wrote also. Read the last paragraph. +1 for Lenny
I guess He feels differently about it now! All I can tell you, is what He, this evening relayed to me over the phone!

Maybe He's revaluated Scott's game since then! He seems to play in these BIG money 'round robin' matches and doesn't fair too well!

The 'Money' matches are, what ever, so it's hard to judge from those!

P.S. I already knew what had been said before on the other site


Last edited by mr3cushion; 02-13-2015 at 08:39 PM.
  
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02-13-2015, 11:02 PM

You do realize that the round robin match accu-stats did was on a 10 foot table right? What a horrible idea just to try to promote a new product. It took the break out of the game. There was no stack to hide behind.

What anyone saw there was just who adjusted fastest to the equipment, which does say something, but not the whole story.


BTW, I think Efren is the best of all time because of his cue ball control while playing defense and running out, and his creativity.

Scott might be the most fun to watch, because of his power shots. Unless you are playing against him, then your arm might start to feel a little weak. I've been there.
  
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