What skill level am I ?

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Guys, I see and acknowledge what you are saying, now hear me out.I did observe my opponent when we were playing.He pulled up when he missed, he was down and dead on when he potted. He was thoughtful and decisive when he approach the table. Granted a SL3. could make those shots,BUT I have to look at the probability of that happening. 1/100 for the SL3,...... @ OR 1/5 for the SL5,6.

Speaking of probabilities...

A 3 putting up a 9 ball break and run on a gold crown when she has only played on a 9 footer around 20 times in her life.


An apa 4 that made 3 successful full cue jumps in a match...with a players cue no less. I had to safety the crap out of her ...making sure she didn't have any more jump shots to barely win hill- hill in 8 ball.

A 5 beating a 7 by 38-22 in a 38-55 race

The same 5 beating a 9 by 38-36 in a 38-75 race.

Or how about a Napa 35 beating a 120 by 3-0 in a 9 ball tournament.

And this one was unbelievable to every one watching the match. An apa 3 beating a Fargo rate 585 by 3-1 playing in an 8 ball tournament.

Like I said before...nothing surprises me anymore .. I have seen all.kinds of upsets and never really thought the person was sandbagging.

Just amazes me that anytime some one loses to a guy that had the pool gods smiling down on him that particular day the loser automatically thinks his opponent is a sandbagger.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I once played a 4 in the CPA (Canadian APA). Lost the lag. Never got to the table. He broke and ran 2 on me to win the match.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One other comment to the op. I believe in one of your posts you commented about about new players ..

We just had usapl start up not too long ago. Actually we are in the 3rd week of the second session now. We have quite a number of apa players including me in it but also several players that are new to league. In all honesty I think the league operator was pretty close in starter ratings for the majority of players. There were a few players ....including me that i felt he was off on their starter ratings. I felt he started me too low and after I kept climbing up he did agree that I started too low.

A couple others I felt he started too high and after 2 matches so far she is coming down to where I thought she should be.

Concerning the brand new players it seems like most were under handicapped to start with. A couple of them surprised the heck out of me when I faced them.

Unlike the op I did not complain because I have faith in the handicapping system. Sure I lost matches I felt I should not have due to my opponents handicap but that's league for you.

2 new players really stood out . One was a 350 when I first played him and is now a 505. The other was around a 450 iirc correctly and now plays on my team as a 495.

What I am getting at is if I started a thread every time I faced a player that had an amazing game when I faced them I would have a few thousand threads crying about my loss to a suspected sandbagger.

I am very aware there are plenty of sandbaggers out there but leagues are not as full of them as people would leave you to believe.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
I once played a 4 in the CPA (Canadian APA). Lost the lag. Never got to the table. He broke and ran 2 on me to win the match.

Similar here. Played against a 2, I broke and didn’t get out, and he ran 7 balls and out (all over the place), and 8-ball break on the next game. I was his only win the entire session.

He was ecstatic. As much as it hurt to lose, I didn’t want to take his happiness away.
 

Dunnn51

Clear the table!
Silver Member
Speaking of probabilities...

A 3 putting up a 9 ball break and run on a gold crown when she has only played on a 9 footer around 20 times in her life.


An apa 4 that made 3 successful full cue jumps in a match...with a players cue no less. I had to safety the crap out of her ...making sure she didn't have any more jump shots to barely win hill- hill in 8 ball.

A 5 beating a 7 by 38-22 in a 38-55 race

The same 5 beating a 9 by 38-36 in a 38-75 race.


Or how about a Napa 35 beating a 120 by 3-0 in a 9 ball tournament.

And this one was unbelievable to every one watching the match. An apa 3 beating a Fargo rate 585 by 3-1 playing in an 8 ball tournament.

Like I said before...nothing surprises me anymore .. I have seen all.kinds of upsets and never really thought the person was sandbagging.

Just amazes me that anytime some one loses to a guy that had the pool gods smiling down on him that particular day the loser automatically thinks his opponent is a sandbagger.

Did that 5/6 do that in the same outing?? I play 5/6's all the time and know their abilities. I know of a "5" that makes more than his share of specialty shots, but get queasy (sp?) about a certain common shot that comes up in 9-ball. He jumps up every time.,and misses.


One other comment to the op. I believe in one of your posts you commented about about new players ..

We just had usapl start up not too long ago. Actually we are in the 3rd week of the second session now. We have quite a number of apa players including me in it but also several players that are new to league. In all honesty I think the league operator was pretty close in starter ratings for the majority of players. There were a few players ....including me that i felt he was off on their starter ratings. I felt he started me too low and after I kept climbing up he did agree that I started too low.

A couple others I felt he started too high and after 2 matches so far she is coming down to where I thought she should be.

Concerning the brand new players it seems like most were under handicapped to start with. A couple of them surprised the heck out of me when I faced them.

Unlike the op I did not complain because I have faith in the handicapping system. Sure I lost matches I felt I should not have due to my opponents handicap but that's league for you.

2 new players really stood out . One was a 350 when I first played him and is now a 505. The other was around a 450 iirc correctly and now plays on my team as a 495.

What I am getting at is if I started a thread every time I faced a player that had an amazing game when I faced them I would have a few thousand threads crying about my loss to a suspected sandbagger.

I am very aware there are plenty of sandbaggers out there but leagues are not as full of them as people would leave you to believe.

I would appreciate your not judging me ;you don't know me outside of posts here on the forum. I am not "crying" about my loss. Truthfully, I shook his hand after his run and congratulated him on making the masse'. I was dissappointed though as I was 3 and out for the win on a reasonably good safety. I simply wanted to know what were the "odds" for a SL3 player anywhere in the country. I believe we all agree they are slim.

There are different levels of SL3's . Some are just learning how to use, or what "English"
is; and others have been to Vegas competing on a national level. This league has quite a few of the latter which makes me wary when I play them.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did that 5/6 do that in the same outing?? I play 5/6's all the time and know their abilities. I know of a "5" that makes more than his share of specialty shots, but get queasy (sp?) about a certain common shot that comes up in 9-ball. He jumps up every time.,and misses.




I would appreciate your not judging me ;you don't know me outside of posts here on the forum. I am not "crying" about my loss. Truthfully, I shook his hand after his run and congratulated him on making the masse'. I was dissappointed though as I was 3 and out for the win on a reasonably good safety. I simply wanted to know what were the "odds" for a SL3 player anywhere in the country. I believe we all agree they are slim.

There are different levels of SL3's . Some are just learning how to use, or what "English"
is; and others have been to Vegas competing on a national level. This league has quite a few of the latter which makes me wary when I play them.


No those matches from the 5 were a few months apart.

I went back and re read my post and see where you think I was judgemental I did not mean to be.

I must have missed where you said you were a 3. I would like to ask you how long you have been playing.. I am going to try and not be judgemental on these next observations of what you posted.

You stated you played a good safe. that impresses me because 3's in my area never even think of playing safes let alone successfully make a good one.

The reason I asked how Lon you have been playing is because I have never hears of a 3 that is able to judge others skill level accurately.....especially higher level players. I can see you having doubts about other 3's when you compare their playing ability to yours.


You more or less addressed your question in your op when you stated all 3's are nit the same. I agree completely with that statement.....something I have said many times on here myself concerning all apa handicap levels.

I am currently playing usapl also and so far my experience in that league backs up my statement above. We currently have 2 other apa 5's like myself also playing usapl. So far my Fargo rate far exceeds the other 2 s/l 5's. I am a 511...one is a 446 and the other is a 422. Now ask yourself ...how is it possible to have such a huge difference in Fargo rating among 3 players who are all apa 5's ? The answer is in how well they can all perform the following.

1.Shot making
2.safety play
3.kicking
4.banking
5. Cue ball control

The person who can do most of the above better than his opponent who is the same level is going to be the stronger player.

Now in all honesty comparing apa handicapping system to Fargo rate is like comparing apples to oranges....especially in 9 ball even though they both are points based games.

Apa 9 ball is all about how many points you get in each rack. Its all about who makes the money ball in usapl.

In apa 9 ball you can break and run 8 balls...miss the 9 and your opponent makes it you still win the rack 8-2

In usapl under the same scenario you lose the rack 14-8. More importantly Fargo is based on how many racks you win vs your opponent...not how many points you earned.


Wanna read something crazy about apa vs usapl ?

In apa 9 ball if you reach your points total first the match stops right there and then.

In usapl you have to finish the rack out to complete the match. My opponent was breaking and need 2 points to reach his total in that race. He broke and made a ball and then pocketed another.....he reached his total first. We completed the rack....which I won and achieved a higher points count over my handicap than my opponent made over his giving me the win.
 

Dunnn51

Clear the table!
Silver Member
No those matches from the 5 were a few months apart.

I went back and re read my post and see where you think I was judgemental I did not mean to be.

From my post (#65) you made the statements at the bottom of the 2 quotes anonymous;however placing them as an end statement made them seem to have direction toward me. Perhaps my supposition was wrong. If That's the case,
you have my apology


I must have missed where you said you were a 3. I would like to ask you how long you have been playing.. I am going to try and not be judgemental on these next observations of what you posted.

You stated you played a good safe. that impresses me because 3's in my area never even think of playing safes let alone successfully make a good one.


I never stated I was a SL3. Upon starting this thread I made supposition that I was a SL3 and was playing against you in a ficticious match. You need to look closer at my comments.I am about your speed(5/6). In the league I am talking about,that's 4/5. There are many "6's" in this league that can easily compete head-to-head with "7's" elsewhere.




The reason I asked how Lon you have been playing is because I have never hears of a 3 that is able to judge others skill level accurately.....especially higher level players. I can see you having doubts about other 3's when you compare their playing ability to yours.


You more or less addressed your question in your op when you stated all 3's are nit the same. I agree completely with that statement.....something I have said many times on here myself concerning all apa handicap levels.

I am currently playing usapl also and so far my experience in that league backs up my statement above. We currently have 2 other apa 5's like myself also playing usapl. So far my Fargo rate far exceeds the other 2 s/l 5's. I am a 511...one is a 446 and the other is a 422. Now ask yourself ...how is it possible to have such a huge difference in Fargo rating among 3 players who are all apa 5's ? The answer is in how well they can all perform the following.

1.Shot making
2.safety play
3.kicking
4.banking
5. Cue ball control

The person who can do most of the above better than his opponent who is the same level is going to be the stronger player.

Now in all honesty comparing apa handicapping system to Fargo rate is like comparing apples to oranges....especially in 9 ball even though they both are points based games.

Apa 9 ball is all about how many points you get in each rack. Its all about who makes the money ball in usapl.

In apa 9 ball you can break and run 8 balls...miss the 9 and your opponent makes it you still win the rack 8-2

In usapl under the same scenario you lose the rack 14-8. More importantly Fargo is based on how many racks you win vs your opponent...not how many points you earned.


Wanna read something crazy about apa vs usapl ?

In apa 9 ball if you reach your points total first the match stops right there and then.

In usapl you have to finish the rack out to complete the match. My opponent was breaking and need 2 points to reach his total in that race. He broke and made a ball and then pocketed another.....he reached his total first. We completed the rack....which I won and achieved a higher points count over my handicap than my opponent made over his giving me the win.

The purpose of the thread was to get a general idea of how a SL3 in APA should be able to play on a normal day of play (excluding those exoteric moments we all have from time to time)
We can all agree that the play of the SL3 in my match was beyond his average capability. Given that and the fact that many players play one SL above their recognized ability here I was inclined to believe the odds of his sand bagging. He will undoubtedly play others my speed and me again. Time will tell.

Thanks again for all of your replies
 
Last edited:

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The purpose of the thread was to get a general idea of how a SL3 in APA should be able to play on a normal day of play (excluding those exoteric moments we all have from time to time)
We can all agree that the play of the SL3 in my match was beyond his average capability. Given that and the fact that many players play one SL above their recognized ability here I was inclined to believe the odds of his sand bagging. He will undoubtedly play others my speed and me again. Time will tell.

Thanks again for all of your replies

I believe Yu have posted in the how yall doin in league a few times if i am not mistaken. I guess I need to pay attention to who all posts in that thread aside from the guys who are pretty regular.

I am going to explain to you why I am slow to suspect sandbagging......unless I have seen a definite pattern over 5-6 matches. And I prefer to make an opinion upon playing them rather than watching them.

After about a year or so in apa I started to be one of those guys that always suspected people of being sandbaggers ....or at least under handicapped. I even complained to my lo several times about certain players.... Mainly 4's and 5's that I could never beat.

Then gradually over the next year I started beating those guys ....some on a regular basis and some of those were even raised. I started to realize two things .

1. The handicap system does work
2. I was getting better at kicking...banking...safety play and then began to realize all players at every level are not in the same category in the above disciplines even though they may have the same handicap.

Actually 3 things ... I started being called a sandbagger on a pretty regular basis. Then I started being called a sandbagger so often I began to think it was my nickname.

I have had amazing matches where I can understand someone would accuse me of being a sandbagger and I have had ludicrous accusations such as one time in tri cups an opponent complained to his captain loud enough for my whole team to hear that he thought I was a sandbagger . He was a 5 like me and I beat him 38-37. I chalked that accusation up to a very sore loser lol.

So the above is why I am very cautious about throwing the term sandbagger around .
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
Similar here. Played against a 2, I broke and didn’t get out, and he ran 7 balls and out (all over the place), and 8-ball break on the next game. I was his only win the entire session.

He was ecstatic. As much as it hurt to lose, I didn’t want to take his happiness away.

So, what did people say when he posted a description of your match on here and asked, "What skill level am I?"
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I play in a tournament for B players and one of the guys who plays in it has a
Fargorate of 689. He hardly ever wins the tournament but he does win some of them

That high of a Fargo is A+ level. Maybe you guys should look again what a "B" player is. If a B is nearly 700, A Pro would have to be 900, since that is not the case, your ratings are off. A B player in Fargo starts out at about 500 and at 600 you are pretty much in the A- range.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Comparing letter ratings to number ratings has been debated in here several times. I believe it may be Joe tucker who had posted on his site rating comparisons...may be wrong about that though. I do recall reading up on it and I may be off a little.

D player...apa 3/4
C player ... Apa 5
B player ...apa 6
A player ...apa 7

Just as a cross reference if you are familiar with Fargo rate.

I am an apa 5 with a Fargo rating of 511...albeit not established yet . I only have 165 games in the system so far. Btw....so far usapl is the only league I have played in where I have not been called a sandbagger lol. Guess there is still time for that since I am not established yet lol.

As a 511 you should be a 6 in APA, in most areas. If your league happens to be filled with only strong C or B players then I can see a 500 in Fargo being a 5, but that would be iffy.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ding Ding Ding !! (give the man a cigar! You are EXACTLY right. The " "me" that beat you in ficticious match was indeed an opp.
Was a SL-3 !! Even in our league he would be a SL-6. I played well; not my best, but good enough not to lose to a (regular) SL-3 .
I have heard about SL-3 at Vegas running out, but NEVER seen one make a full Table Masse' on a 9 ft table.
Opp commented about "when the spin would take" on the masse'

:frown: :mad:
I'm over it now, but was pretty mad someone could Sandbag 3 skill levels and not get noticed.

This is why I like Fargo ratings, it takes every match you play into account, league or not league, including even races. It's a bit tough to sandbag in an even race to 9 if you want to win.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As a 511 you should be a 6 in APA, in most areas. If your league happens to be filled with only strong C or B players then I can see a 500 in Fargo being a 5, but that would be iffy.

Your opinion is pretty accurate...i believe.

I do fluctuate between an apa 5 and 6. I am not sure how many strong c or b players are in my league. 2 reasons for that.

1. I am not exactly sure what a strong b or c player is.

2. I dont know the ratings of all the players on league so I could not say we have xxx percentage of players over or under 500. I believe I did mention previous matches that 2 other apa 5's are well below me in Fargo. One is a 446 and the other is a 422. I also happen to be a lil above a couple apa 6's that around the 490-498 mark.

As some one said in a previous thread. Our numbers may be skewed some what since its a brand new league and only playing the same people over and over.
 

9BallKY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That high of a Fargo is A+ level. Maybe you guys should look again what a "B" player is. If a B is nearly 700, A Pro would have to be 900, since that is not the case, your ratings are off. A B player in Fargo starts out at about 500 and at 600 you are pretty much in the A- range.

I have nothing to do with the tournament I only play in it. I know there are 3 more
players in it that have well over 600 fargorate and about 10 more strong players that
don't have a fargorate 3 guys who play in it finished in the top 12 of the
Chattanooga open 8 ball tournament won by Sky Woodward
 

noMoreSchon

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How come nobody ever talks about that time they shot three balls better than they should

of to beat a higher handicap? You play long enough and chance are you were that player

you were talking about in your match. A player that never should of had that great match,

but did. Kudos to them. I enjoy those rare moments that every thing comes together, especially

when I am in a match with a better opponent.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have nothing to do with the tournament I only play in it. I know there are 3 more
players in it that have well over 600 fargorate and about 10 more strong players that
don't have a fargorate 3 guys who play in it finished in the top 12 of the
Chattanooga open 8 ball tournament won by Sky Woodward

Maybe the B stands for "Do not B a known pro"? LOL
 
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