Fargo rating to letter rating?

hang-the-9 said:

It's not what I want, it is what it is. An A player is an A player no matter where they are, just like a car that can drive at 140mph can drive that in any state. I don't see how people can possible define ABCD ranking as any different from what they are. [...]

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The problem is YOU want to the be the one that says what they "Are."

Here is the "A" division at Western BCA --They also have many thousands of players and a long history. As you can see these "A" players are generally between 500 and 600 and average 547.

Why doesn't someone in WA or OR get to say what "A" speed really IS? Why can't they say, THIS is what A-speed really is, and those saying something different in MA are just wrong.

Usually when we use a word or label, we start with a general agreement of what it means. We are not even close to agreement on what "A" means. Your association of "A" with particular skills would be fine if you got the people in Minnesota and the people in Oregon to adopt the same understanding. I don't see that happening. The label has history and roots in those places, as it does in your area.

But until you have that general agreement, saying it over and over again that you have the TRUA A-speed with different analogies just doesn't make it closer to true.

hang-the-9 said:

It's not what I want, it is what it is. An A player is an A player no matter where they are, just like a car that can drive at 140mph can drive that in any state. I don't see how people can possible define ABCD ranking as any different from what they are.

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You are starting with some faulty premises, which is that the letter ranking system is one system, and that it is based on something measurable. It isn't either one of those things now, now has it ever been. It has always simply been a subjective judgement about someone's overall playing skills, and different regions devised their own perceptions, and just happened to name them similarly mostly because we were all used to letter grades from school.

The best way to think of it is that there are many regions, with each having their own unrelated and different ranking systems, but they ended up choosing letters for some of their naming. They each could have just as easily ended up choosing other naming conventions, like one region could have used colors for the skill levels while another region could have used numbers and another could have used car names and another could have used tree names etc, but because of what seems natural and what people are used to they mostly chose a letter naming convention similar to the school grades we are all familiar with. Think of it more as many different and unrelated systems that just happen to use a similar naming convention, rather than a single system that ended up being administered differently in different areas. It is much more the former.


Yes it would make much more sense and be much better if there was only one ABCD system for the whole country, and if it was based on something measurable, but as much as we can wish for it that isn't how it is now and that isn't how it ever was. It really doesn't matter any more though because we now have exactly that, a system that means the same thing no matter where you go not just in the US but in the entire world, and that is based solely on what can be accurately measured. It is called FargoRate. Added benefits are that it is much more accurate than any of the ABCD systems could have even dreamed of being, and it also allows for categorizing into as many levels of skill as you want depending on what level of precision you desire to have instead of being forced into having to lump people into one of only a few fairly broad skill level categories.

mikepage said:

The problem is YOU want to the be the one that says what they "Are."

Here is the "A" division at Western BCA --They also have many thousands of players and a long history. As you can see these "A" players are generally between 500 and 600 and average 547.

Why doesn't someone in WA or OR get to say what "A" speed really IS? Why can't they say, THIS is what A-speed really is, and those saying something different in MA are just wrong.

Usually when we use a word or label, we start with a general agreement of what it means. We are not even close to agreement on what "A" means. Your association of "A" with particular skills would be fine if you got the people in Minnesota and the people in Oregon to adopt the same understanding. I don't see that happening. The label has history and roots in those places, as it does in your area.

But until you have that general agreement, saying it over and over again that you have the TRUA A-speed with different analogies just doesn't make it closer to true.

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If an A is 500, an Open would be 600 and a Pro is 700. We know that a Pro level player is over 700. So their A rating is off. Pro, Open, A, B, C, D. If someone states an A is 500-600, that makes an Open 600-700 and Pro 700+, in reality, the Pro levels are closer to 750 and the 500-600 level players do not play like A players, they can't run out a rack with ball in hand. If you go with B skill players being A players in some areas, then there is nothing left for C and D players for skill level and you end up with non-Open players playing as Open players. A C would be a beginner, which they are not, and a D would be a total noob which they are also not.

The ratings are not from my area, what I learned from the ratings was from posts and books from all over the country.

I doubt anyone would call someone with a 600 Fargo an A+ or an Open player. I know several high 500 Fargo rated players, 550-580 they maybe will run a rack or two in a night of playing and maybe no break and runs in a night, if that's an A, I am the king of Spain.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/ratings.html#A-D If you look there, the ABCD ratings are pretty set with several people from different areas.
This chart is great, it actually makes sense with the skill levels without forcing lower level players off the charts, which is what rating B players as A players does in that BCA thing they did. http://billiarduniversity.org/documents/BU_Rating_Comparisons.pdf I had nothing to do with the chart, yet their ABCD ratings are right in line where I think they are.

hang-the-9 said:

If an A is 500, an Open would be 600 and a Pro is 700. We know that a Pro level player is over 700. So their A rating is off. Pro, Open, A, B, C, D. If someone states an A is 500-600, that makes an Open 600-700 and Pro 700+, in reality, the Pro levels are closer to 750 and the 500-600 level players do not play like A players, they can't run out a rack with ball in hand. If you go with B skill players being A players in some areas, then there is nothing left for C and D players for skill level and you end up with non-Open players playing as Open players. A C would be a beginner, which they are not, and a D would be a total noob which they are also not.

The ratings are not from my area, what I learned from the ratings was from posts and books from all over the country.

I doubt anyone would call someone with a 600 Fargo an A+ or an Open player. I know several high 500 Fargo rated players, 550-580 they maybe will run a rack or two in a night of playing and maybe no break and runs in a night, if that's an A, I am the king of Spain.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/ratings.html#A-D If you look there, the ABCD ratings are pretty set with several people from different areas.
This chart is great, it actually makes sense with the skill levels without forcing lower level players off the charts, which is what rating B players as A players does in that BCA thing they did. http://billiarduniversity.org/documents/BU_Rating_Comparisons.pdf I had nothing to do with the chart, yet their ABCD ratings are right in line where I think they are.

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At a tournament in Northern California I was an A++ and probably played around a 600 Fargo rating. It's nothing personal to you, it's just that an A player as you define it is not an A player as everyone defines it. All regions don't even have the same categories as you described. You say Pro, open, A, B, C, D... Some say Pro, shortstop, AAAA, AAA, AA, A, B, C... Some say Pro, semi-pro, shortstop, Open, A+++, A++, A+, A, B, C, D...

It may not be the right way to rank people, but it's definitely true.

Your mamma.

easy-e said:

At a tournament in Northern California I was an A++ and probably played around a 600 Fargo rating. It's nothing personal to you, it's just that an A player as you define it is not an A player as everyone defines it. All regions don't even have the same categories as you described. You say Pro, open, A, B, C, D... Some say Pro, shortstop, AAAA, AAA, AA, A, B, C... Some say Pro, semi-pro, shortstop, Open, A+++, A++, A+, A, B, C, D...

It may not be the right way to rank people, but it's definitely true.

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I think that is whole idea behind the Fargorate system. Too unify all the different ways to measure a players speed. I just checked Fargorate's site and there are 125,794 players with a Fargorate score. I think it is a great idea.

easy-e said:

At a tournament in Northern California I was an A++ and probably played around a 600 Fargo rating. It's nothing personal to you, it's just that an A player as you define it is not an A player as everyone defines it. All regions don't even have the same categories as you described. You say Pro, open, A, B, C, D... Some say Pro, shortstop, AAAA, AAA, AA, A, B, C... Some say Pro, semi-pro, shortstop, Open, A+++, A++, A+, A, B, C, D...

It may not be the right way to rank people, but it's definitely true.

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Boy, sure glad Pool is such an organized sport. Sheesh. So when we meet each other we need a 1 page print out of ratings when we are asked LOL. Well, I am a B+ in MA, but an A in OK, and in CA I am a B, sometimes in GA I am an A+ or an A++, in TX I am a C++++ Blue tier. Every third Wed I play as a 7 in this room, on weekends I am a 4 in the other room, but that makes me a 5.5 at Nationals unless it's for the other league where I am a 45. USAPL I am a 90, but now a 560, and in BCA I am a 7 but in TAP a 6, sometimes on the moon I would be Omega Green 1st tier, when using my second cue I can play as a Orange Monkey 4th level.

philly said:

I think that is whole idea behind the Fargorate system. Too unify all the different ways to measure a players speed. I just checked Fargorate's site and there are 125,794 players with a Fargorate score. I think it is a great idea.

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I agree.....

hang-the-9 said:

Boy, sure glad Pool is such an organized sport. Sheesh. So when we meet each other we need a 1 page print out of ratings when we are asked LOL. Well, I am a B+ in MA, but an A in OK, and in CA I am a B, sometimes in GA I am an A+ or an A++, in TX I am a C++++ Blue tier. Every third Wed I play as a 7 in this room, on weekends I am a 4 in the other room, but that makes me a 5.5 at Nationals unless it's for the other league where I am a 45. USAPL I am a 90, but now a 560, and in BCA I am a 7 but in TAP a 6, sometimes on the moon I would be Omega Green 1st tier, when using my second cue I can play as a Orange Monkey 4th level.

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You're 100% correct, it is stupid. I didn't invent it, and I don't like it either. Fargo ratings are a good thing for pool. Want to try a fun experiment? Go onto the facebook group "Let's talk about pool" and ask everyone for their definition of an A player, B player, etc. The range of answers you'll get is hilarious, people will start arguing, people will get banned, good times...:thumbup:

hang-the-9 said:

Boy, sure glad Pool is such an organized sport. Sheesh. So when we meet each other we need a 1 page print out of ratings when we are asked LOL. Well, I am a B+ in MA, but an A in OK, and in CA I am a B, sometimes in GA I am an A+ or an A++, in TX I am a C++++ Blue tier. Every third Wed I play as a 7 in this room, on weekends I am a 4 in the other room, but that makes me a 5.5 at Nationals unless it's for the other league where I am a 45. USAPL I am a 90, but now a 560, and in BCA I am a 7 but in TAP a 6, sometimes on the moon I would be Omega Green 1st tier, when using my second cue I can play as a Orange Monkey 4th level.

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Do you have a fargo rating? Just go to the site and find out. Then type in other players names that you know and regularly compete against. You will be amazed how accurate they are at judging speed against other players. They are basically using algorithms rather than a human just guessing a fair game. Takes the woofing and barking out of it. Just input two players or their fargo score and it automatically computes the fair match.

hang-the-9 said:

If an A is 500, an Open would be 600 and [...]

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Most areas don't use "Open" as a thing at all. People wouldn't know what you're talking about. In fact around the country "Open" is more likely to be associated with CSI's old category that was below Advanced and well below Master...

I had nothing to do with the chart, yet their ABCD ratings are right in line where I think they are.

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You like the chart, and I can't help but note that Kerry, who is from your corner of the country, says that a B+ in Rhode Island had better be an APA 7 in 8-ball or he's losing his stuff.... And yet the chart you like so much says that a higher letter rating, A-, is an APA 6.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

Straaawrberry

In my basement I'm a AAAA (Fargo = 325).

mikepage said:

Most areas don't use "Open" as a thing at all. People wouldn't know what you're talking about. In fact around the country "Open" is more likely to be associated with CSI's old category that was below Advanced and well below Master...



You like the chart, and I can't help but note that Kerry, who is from your corner of the country, says that a B+ in Rhode Island had better be an APA 7 in 8-ball or he's losing his stuff.... And yet the chart you like so much says that a higher letter rating, A-, is an APA 6.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

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There is also a blurb under the league ratings that they vary by region. A B+ should be maxed out in APA or TAP, but they may not be. I was a 7 in TAP for a bit, as a B+, then dropped to a 6. I think I won the top shooter in 6/7 ratings one session or came in second, but I never reached 7 after the first 3-4 weeks I was in TAP. That is because league ratings (outside of Fargo) do count who you play against every week. If you are in a normal or weak area you can have a 7 APA in 8 ball be a B+ but in another area that B+ is playing against A players often so is a 6 because of their losses. Which is why league ratings are not as good as the ABCD ratings which go by ability overall not just relative ability in a league, where players also sandbag. You can't sandbag knowing how to hit a 3 rail inside english spin shot and get position on the next ball, and knowledge like that is what gives you your rating.

I still don't get where the argument is. If the ABCD ratings start getting messed with, you end up with no room at the top or bottom for skill ratings, and you end up with people saying they are a B when they are an A and robbing tournaments.

The CSI Open division was confusing, but again, that is not the fault of the rating system but by the people that don't use is properly.

philly said:

Do you have a fargo rating? Just go to the site and find out. Then type in other players names that you know and regularly compete against. You will be amazed how accurate they are at judging speed against other players. They are basically using algorithms rather than a human just guessing a fair game. Takes the woofing and barking out of it. Just input two players or their fargo score and it automatically computes the fair match.

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I know about the Fargo rating, and I like it. It's very accurate given enough data and pretty close with only a bit of data.

The issue is not that, it's people saying that an A is not an A because of skill but because of a relative rank to other players around them. That is not a relative rank, it is based on your skill, it's not a league rating, it's a skill rating. APA, TAP, BCA ratings are relative, but even those can be mapped to within half a skill level for most ranks except the top, since in APA and TAP a 7 can be anywhere from a good B player to a pro.

I use the example of a yard. A yard is a yard, if some tournament or league starts to say a yard is 2.4 feet and a yard + is 3 feet, the issue is with the wrong use of the term not of the term in itself, and it causes issues like this whole discussion. I think some dope of a state tried to make Pi equal to 3, this is pretty much that LOL

hang-the-9 said:

[...]
The issue is not that, it's people saying that an A is not an A because of skill but because of a relative rank to other players around them. [...]

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I don't think you should assume that. I believe other places also have a specific absolute performance in mind when they say "A" player.

I think they would say

An A-player plays like THIS
A yard is 3 feet

They would see you as saying a yard is 4 feet and object to it.

What is the solution?

hang-the-9 said:

That is because people keep using them incorrectly not because the rating changes. If you use A as "very good" then you get someone better, you have AA. Issue with that, is that there is no solid answer there as to what an A is, just that you are better than someone that is a B. But how good is a B? Well, he is better than a C. And there is the issue, the people doing the ratings don't understand how they are actually assigning the ratings to the players since they are doing it relative to others. Bill is good, he is an A, oh wait, now we have Joe playing, he is better than Bill so he is an AA. But Joe can't run 7 balls with ball in hand, he is just better than Bill. So this place now has an AA player that is actually a B. And the parade starts with now we need an AAA that is really an A.

A yard is a yard no matter where you go, the issue will start when someone decides a yard should be 2.5 feet instead of 3.

If you give out specific things that an A player can do, which is run out 8-9 balls more than half the time with ball in hand, then you do that no matter where you are. If you can run out 8-9 balls almost every time you are an A+, if you can run out 9-10 balls with ball in hand, you are an AA or AAA. It does not matter where you are, as long as whoever does the rating actually follows the same guideline. Which they should. If they don't, there is no rating system.

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A players (or B or C or Open) are not in every case their rating because of one specific metric like how many balls they can run. If I'm an A, I think there are plenty of A's that run balls better than me. However, my kicking and break are much better relative to my speed. So my A rating may be coming more from those things. If I guy runs out according to your definition of a B player, yet every time he plays safe you are glued to a ball, or every time he kicks he makes the ball, now what is his rating? See the issue?

Letter grades are by definition relative rating systems. Fargo is *also* by definition a relative rating system. The point is that the number leaves less room for ambiguity, and effectively subsumes all the facets of play that contribute to a players ultimate performance.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

mikepage said:

The problem is YOU want to the be the one that says what they "Are."



Here is the "A" division at Western BCA --They also have many thousands of players and a long history. As you can see these "A" players are generally between 500 and 600 and average 547.



Why doesn't someone in WA or OR get to say what "A" speed really IS? Why can't they say, THIS is what A-speed really is, and those saying something different in MA are just wrong.



Usually when we use a word or label, we start with a general agreement of what it means. We are not even close to agreement on what "A" means. Your association of "A" with particular skills would be fine if you got the people in Minnesota and the people in Oregon to adopt the same understanding. I don't see that happening. The label has history and roots in those places, as it does in your area.



But until you have that general agreement, saying it over and over again that you have the TRUA A-speed with different analogies just doesn't make it closer to true.

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Very well said Mike. Hard to imagine arguing against this. You already said it more concisely before, but it didn't seem to sink in.

In any case, since I'm just an A, I'd like to sign up for that Western BCA event you mentioned in the A division. I'm sure they won't mind ;-)

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

hang-the-9 said:

I know about the Fargo rating, and I like it. It's very accurate given enough data and pretty close with only a bit of data.

The issue is not that, it's people saying that an A is not an A because of skill but because of a relative rank to other players around them. That is not a relative rank, it is based on your skill, it's not a league rating, it's a skill rating. APA, TAP, BCA ratings are relative, but even those can be mapped to within half a skill level for most ranks except the top, since in APA and TAP a 7 can be anywhere from a good B player to a pro.

I use the example of a yard. A yard is a yard, if some tournament or league starts to say a yard is 2.4 feet and a yard + is 3 feet, the issue is with the wrong use of the term not of the term in itself, and it causes issues like this whole discussion. I think some dope of a state tried to make Pi equal to 3, this is pretty much that LOL

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I probably can't say it any better than how Mike did above. I have to ask you, why do you think that YOUR definitions of A, B, C, D players is the true definition? Holy cow man, there are many smart people out there who are just as certain that THEIR definition is the right one. How are you not understanding this?

hang-the-9 said:

Boy, sure glad Pool is such an organized sport. Sheesh. So when we meet each other we need a 1 page print out of ratings when we are asked LOL. Well, I am a B+ in MA, but an A in OK, and in CA I am a B, sometimes in GA I am an A+ or an A++, in TX I am a C++++ Blue tier. Every third Wed I play as a 7 in this room, on weekends I am a 4 in the other room, but that makes me a 5.5 at Nationals unless it's for the other league where I am a 45. USAPL I am a 90, but now a 560, and in BCA I am a 7 but in TAP a 6, sometimes on the moon I would be Omega Green 1st tier, when using my second cue I can play as a Orange Monkey 4th level.

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Like Easy-e I've lived all over the country and that is almost exactly what I had to do every time I went to a new town. "Well, I'm a AAA in Denver on the barbox and in Phoenix I was a 9 on the big tables..."

And then half the time they would just ask me what I thought I should be and then ignore whatever I said and make me whatever they felt like.

I like that FargoRate creates a connected handicap for everyone.