Ginacue popped over ivory, hopefully much or all fake.

Shawn Armstrong said:

The US is actually the second biggest consumer of ivory goods in the world behind China. This is something you seem to lose sight of. The reason the law is in place in California is that after STUDY and RESEARCH, it was determined that about 90% of the ivory in the state was illegal. Even though people had CITES documentation, it was forged. Seriously, a bunch of you ivory proponents need to open your eyes, and start reading about the issue. Not just picking and choosing your material to suit your arguments. I'd take the results and opinions of world wildlife authorities over those that are ivory cue dealers and fans. You'll use any justification to make yourself feel good.

FACT - when ivory was banned for sale between 1989 and 1999, elephants started recovering. There was always a black market, but simply banning ivory sales worked. Widely known fact. When they decided to do the two massive sells in 1999 and 2008, elephant populations depleted.

So, argue with the facts, guys. During the ban, elephants recovered. During the ban, they went from an appendix 1 species to an appendix 2 species. Now that ivory is "pre ban" legal, the elephant is again an appendix 1 species.

So....Joe, Sean, Lou, SJD, Bava, etc......keep arguing that it isn't a problem. And that banning ivory sales won't work. It clearly did. It's the old expression "don't tell me it can't be done while I'm actually doing it".

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dom_poppa said:

Regardless of what you think about the ivory ban...

America has the best cue makers in the world. Most elaborate cues are made with ivory in them.

We don't want to be known as the ivory cue capital of the world especially if ivory is illegal in the world

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Shawn Armstrong said:

If you're too dense to realize that ivory comes from a living being, no amount of chalkboard talks or crayola diagrams are going to help you.

Perhaps we should talk about the plight of the poor cannabis plant, and its right to live. Or the millions of innocent poppies killed per year for the opium trade. Or all those wheat fields/potatoes/etc that are destroyed to make alcohol.

The comparisons may make you feel better. The problems are not related in the slightest. You're discussing things that people are addicted to. I don't have a cocaine statue in my house. Or a meth ferrule on my pool cue. Some people get high to feel better. I ride my motorcycle and work out. That pretty white ferrule of yours can be replaced with a material that is more durable, costs less, and is a sustainable man made material.

All I hear are arguments about drugs, screaming trees, killing cows for food, etc. These arguments hold NO WATER, as we are talking about sustainable resources. And things that are necessities. Ivory is not a necessity. It's a luxury. And you are condoning the elimination of a species by using and supporting its trade. Plain and simple. If you think it's the human's right and prerogative to destroy the other living creatures on the planet purely for "luxury", you have no social conscience.

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Shawn Armstrong said:

The US is actually the second biggest consumer of ivory goods in the world behind China. This is something you seem to lose sight of. The reason the law is in place in California is that after STUDY and RESEARCH, it was determined that about 90% of the ivory in the state was illegal. Even though people had CITES documentation, it was forged. Seriously, a bunch of you ivory proponents need to open your eyes, and start reading about the issue. Not just picking and choosing your material to suit your arguments. I'd take the results and opinions of world wildlife authorities over those that are ivory cue dealers and fans. You'll use any justification to make yourself feel good.

FACT - when ivory was banned for sale between 1989 and 1999, elephants started recovering. There was always a black market, but simply banning ivory sales worked. Widely known fact. When they decided to do the two massive sells in 1999 and 2008, elephant populations depleted.

So, argue with the facts, guys. During the ban, elephants recovered. During the ban, they went from an appendix 1 species to an appendix 2 species. Now that ivory is "pre ban" legal, the elephant is again an appendix 1 species.

So....Joe, Sean, Lou, SJD, Bava, etc......keep arguing that it isn't a problem. And that banning ivory sales won't work. It clearly did. It's the old expression "don't tell me it can't be done while I'm actually doing it".

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lfigueroa said:

Please show me any credible resource that shows the US is the second largest consumer of ivory goods in the world AND that *second place* is any more than a dribble compared to the 95% that goes to Asia.

Lou Figueroa

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overlord said:

The biggest threat to elephants in Africa is the Africans themselves and the fact that they currently have the highest birthrate in the world.

Wild elephants do not mix well with civilized urban settings or even farming communities.

The entire state of California could commit suicide and it would do nothing regarding the " Climate " but the politicians voted in the cap and trade.

This law in California making peoples' legal investments illegal in terms of trade is an outrage. The one party rule in Cali is out of control and the politicians keep voting more and more regulations in that require the hiring of an army of bureaucrats.

Poor Ernie when he was just about to retire is gonna be made into an example. It is very sad. He should of moved to Florida.

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skins said:

It went down IN Cali and the buyer tried to take them out of the country..Either way you can't sell ANYTHING with ivory in it in Cali period as of early July.

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cueaddicts said:

You speak as if those two sales singularly did this. What about the economic changes in China (huge boom in the middle class there and disposable income) and the continual loss of habitat in Africa, plus the govts there getting involved in the lucrative poaching. Your simpleton view on this is a joke. There are many many more things in play driving the demand abroad, while demand here in the US continually diminishes.

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classiccues said:

Just another Canadian that thinks he knows whats good for everybody...
JV

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The vast majority of smuggled ivory—experts say as much as 70 percent—ends up in China, where a newly wealthy middle class fuels the demand for luxury ivory products. Although seizures of illegally obtained ivory take place, much of the smuggled ivory still gets through. Less than 1 percent of the shipping containers unloaded in the Port of Hong Kong are inspected for smuggled ivory. Ivory traders who do get caught are seldom arrested and, if they are, they face feeble penalties. The combination of improved international trade links and weak enforcement proves a powerful and extremely lucrative incentive for the criminal networks leading the poaching of African’s elephants.

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According to John Heminway, writer, producer, and director of Battle for the Elephants, “In Africa, wildlife conservationists…are risking their lives to protect these animals, but they are losing the fight. The market for smuggled ivory is too lucrative for poachers to resist, and our research suggests demand for ivory in China is only going to rise.”

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Despite a ban on the international trade in ivory, African elephants are still being poached in large numbers. Tens of thousands of elephants are being killed every year for their ivory tusks. The ivory is often carved into ornaments and jewellery – China is the biggest consumer market for such products.

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classiccues said:

Ebony and Ivory...
Two materials I can't use in harmony...
Some liberal jackass says that its not good
To mix elephant tusk with ebony wood...
Want to hang those tree hugging morons by a rope....
Starting with Obama and his change and hope...

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dom_poppa said:

I think people are missing my point. A law was created whether you like it or not.

You cannot break a law because you do not like it.

It sucks that a famous cue maker got popped but he knew the law and decided to break it that is according to the Feds of course.

There is really nothing to disagree with me here.

I am neutral on ivory ban but breaking the law? I am not fond of.

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KissedOut said:

Yup. when "everyone" owns something then no one owns it and no one takes care of it. I think the most vociferous defenders of the current ivory situation must be the poachers, as it is their business that benefits most from having prices made artificially high by government "protecting" the elephants.

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jasonlaus said:

So, he's guilty??? No trial, nothing, just straight to the Electric chair.

Aren't you the guy who beat up bums in the street or pee'd on them, or some other insane crap?

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Tony_in_MD said:

Yes he is, good memory.

He will say anything to keep this thread alive, along with his TD thread.

It may be high time to go full blown English to get the threads locked and deleted.

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