Picking up Pace of Play / Pre Shot Routine

ChrisinNC said:

I’ve been stuck in a very long and frustrating slump for quite a while now. At 63, I’ve really started to wonder if this is a permanent age related regression in my skills, or more a mental thing. I’ve tried just about everything imaginable, and my latest and perhaps last resort idea is a drastic acceleration in the pace of my play and pre-shot routine.

Pace wise, for a skilled player who has played this game for 50 years, my pace would be considered slightly slower than average and certainly nothing resembling the faster pace a number of our younger top players in our room play at. My model of pro players that play at the pace I’m striving for include Earl Strickland, Sky Woodward, and Joshua Filler to name just a few that come to mind, who all play at a fast pace.

When practicing by myself, I’ve recently tried playing fast with some success. It just seems to be more fun and less stressful. I’m trusting my 50 years of shot making and positioning knowledge to know that in most cases it shouldn’t take but a few seconds to see exactly what I need to do and execute. I’m simply not allowing any time for self doubt and negative thoughts to enter my mind, but still mindful of good fundamentals - particularly staying down and still through the shot. The real test will be seeing if I can do this in tournament match situations with any degree of success and consistency.

I’ll try to follow up in a few weeks to share my thoughts as to whether I’ve had any success in this experiment. Anyone else here struggling with their game experience any lasting improvement by drastically picking up their pace of play? Thanks

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It seems like there is likely another thing holding you back that you're not aware of. Some bad habit that's crept in or one that you've always had that you got away with while you were younger.

Do you have any video of yourself playing in an actual match that you could look at and try to spot issues or maybe get an analysis of your fundamentals from a good instructor.

I don't think doing things wrong quickly instead of slowly is going to be the long term answer. JMO

ChrisinNC said:

I’ve been stuck in a very long and frustrating slump for quite a while now. At 63, I’ve really started to wonder if this is a permanent age related regression in my skills, or more a mental thing. I’ve tried just about everything imaginable, and my latest and perhaps last resort idea is a drastic acceleration in the pace of my play and pre-shot routine.

Pace wise, for a skilled player who has played this game for 50 years, my pace would be considered slightly slower than average and certainly nothing resembling the faster pace a number of our younger top players in our room play at. My model of pro players that play at the pace I’m striving for include Earl Strickland, Sky Woodward, and Joshua Filler to name just a few that come to mind, who all play at a fast pace.

When practicing by myself, I’ve recently tried playing fast with some success. It just seems to be more fun and less stressful. I’m trusting my 50 years of shot making and positioning knowledge to know that in most cases it shouldn’t take but a few seconds to see exactly what I need to do and execute. I’m simply not allowing any time for self doubt and negative thoughts to enter my mind, but still mindful of good fundamentals - particularly staying down and still through the shot. The real test will be seeing if I can do this in tournament match situations with any degree of success and consistency.

I’ll try to follow up in a few weeks to share my thoughts as to whether I’ve had any success in this experiment. Anyone else here struggling with their game experience any lasting improvement by drastically picking up their pace of play? Thanks

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I think altering your pace of play will change things, maybe some good, maybe some bad.

But unless some significant disability is afflicting you in your dotage I don't believe age (or speed of play) is the issue. It's just that you've unconsciously changed something somewhere along the way and obviously not for the better. That could be any number of tiny things. It just takes one of them to make a big difference in the quality of your play.

Lou Figueroa

My guess is that it has little to do with your age- my bet is that it is one of two things- as long as nothing physical is at play here (cataracts etc.) 1. somehow your perception of the correct target point on the object ball is inconsistent - could be how you are sighting the shot; or how you are aligning yourself when you get down to shoot- or 2. you are Seeing the shot correctly as per the target point on the object ball; but you are releasing your cue inconsistently when you are down on the shot - i.e. sometimes NOT releasing the cue AT the exact moment that you are locked onto the correct object ball target point.
I am 66 years old, recently retired so I have now had time to really fully analyze my game. I have always been a very good player, but, like you, could not figure out why I was not the player i knew I could be. I have been able to isolate the two reasons mentioned above as the only possible areas that were possibly inconsistent. For me- it is mostly reason number 2- I work on my release point almost exclusively now- every time I miss a shot I just KNOW that I should make I look at that release point and ask myself how was it different- usually it was a rushed release point due to feeling less confident somewhere in my sub conscious thought process about that shot. Admitting this to yourself is not easy - you are admitting a weakness- but I will tell you for sure, working on it has made me the best player I have ever been since I picked up a cue 55 years ago. There is a Ralph Eckert training video where he explains this and points out that those are the two variables responsible for most missed shots.

i got to the point i now play in about a year ,i never got any better
I guess pool was only the third game in my life on the road,
first came golf,then pool and finally poker

i was more involved in finding action than i was in practice

sometimes i admire you guys who just play for the sake of playing,
either golf or pool,poker of course is not a fun game for anyone,it is strickly gambling

The thing i noticed about pool was that once you get good,it becomes difficult to get a game.
Titanic warned me about that"son don't ever get good or you will never get ant easy games"

and his other advice"if you don't have a good game,don't play"

this is easy to say,and hard to follow

you guys who study are a wonder to me,keep having fun

ChrisinNC said:

It’s kind of strange to explain unless you’ve experienced it and I’m quite sure it’s completely mental. Much like a very good golfer who just inexplicably gets the “yips” in their putting stroke. The very simple process of taking it straight back and straight through, with acceleration, all of a sudden just leaves you. I really don’t think it has anything to do with an aiming flaw or with other fundamentals involved in the set up, alignment or stroke mechanics, but I do remain open to considering anything and everything to try shoot my way out of this.

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Chris - From the many threads that you’ve started - threads addressing a series of thoughts and doubts and drills and techniques and approaches to improvement that you’ve had or implemented - I see counterproductive self-analysis and some measure of inability to start at a starting point and stay on the path that connects that starting point to an identified end point. It just seems that you are bouncing around, trying but then abandoning one thought or approach or tip for some other one that you hope will unlock success. I can identify with this approach. That was my story with golf, for far too long. Lots of good ideas, but nothing but bouncing around from one to the next, and never fundamentally changing flaws or improving.

I’d suggest that you not try to fix it by yourself, but instead find a good instructor, get on a program with him or her, trust the instruction, stick to what you are told to do, and (this part is key) stick to each step for as long as you are told to do so. Don’t think that you’ve “got it” and can move on to some other step, or, worse yet, move into something that you’ve come up with on your own as a new fix.

My two cents.

Kind of in line with what Seth said, do you think it possible that you are making changes to things that haven't really had a chance to take hold?

Or, maybe you are as good as you are gonna get? There has to be a point in our games where our proficiency level peaks, no?

What can you do? Enjoy the game for what it is and be happy with its place in your life, I guess:shrug:.

Guys would used to play fast to outrun the dog. Strickland was the only one mastered it.
sorta...

I think if you picked up the pace you'd just bring along and amplify whatever was wrong.

Ever see that Lucy Arnaz show where she's on the candy line and it turns into a wreck?

Guys today are armed (and armored) with more academia and method and have learned to face the pressure and "simply" trudge on through.

I have a friend who plays a lot better when he plays fast. There is a simple reason. He is misalligned on his setup, then subconsciously corrects on his delivery. No amount of coaching has been able to fix that problem, and when he tries to play slow, his natural, subconscious correction doesn't work as well. Every coach he's ever tried gave up on fixing it. He plays ok, but could be much better.

There is no consistency, with flaws like that. Maybe you have some sort of less severe (probably) flaw that you unconsciously compensate for. Maybe you're misalligned only a hair to the right or left, or maybe twist your wrist slightly in or out? Hard to know without seeing you play. A coach could help you at least figure out what's wrong, and if it could be fixed. If you're just overthinking your shots, then maybe playing quick isn't so bad, but having hidden fundamental flaws is a possibility that needs to be looked at.

I can sometimes play better fast than I do slow. It's the subconscious corrections. I know this, because I can sometimes feel them kick in on a rare shot. If I took my time more, I'd have gotten back up and adjusted that way instead. Playing lightening fast is a good way to get in stroke once in a while, but sadly your fundamentals often go to sh... when you try to do this over time. I wouldn't recommend it. I've even posted about it in the past I think. I had great successs with it for a while, and then my fundamentals went into the toilet. Took a long time to get back on track. Playing subconsciously is well and good, but you also need to be able to execute somewhat reliably when coming out of the chair etc, and some shots actually need some care.

Started Young, Still Do It Sometimes

Something I started at fifteen or sixteen and still do sometimes today, when the balls aren't falling I go to one or no practice strokes, basically speed pool. I move back from the table a little bit and as I step into a shot the stick comes back, bang! Have to line up right coming into the shot and there is no time for realignment when you decide you aren't lined up, no time to decide you aren't lined up.

I believe that people at the pool hall suspect I have lost my mind when I start playing this style but in truth I used to be able to play almost as well like this as I played on my good days with a more normal style. After a few racks of this wild pace I slow down and play normally but I think I come into the shots better.

I notice I am taking a lot of practice strokes lately. Why? I don't know. Going to try to cut down on them but since the extra practice strokes have came in without planning I may need them.

I have been messing with dominant eye and vision center alignment, I play like crap using either. With my head way to the right of my vision center I am comfortable and knocking balls in the hole. Seems like I always come to grief when I try to play pool "right" and do better when I let instinct take over.

Hu

ShootingArts said:

Something I started at fifteen or sixteen and still do sometimes today, when the balls aren't falling I go to one or no practice strokes, basically speed pool. I move back from the table a little bit and as I step into a shot the stick comes back, bang! Have to line up right coming into the shot and there is no time for realignment when you decide you aren't lined up, no time to decide you aren't lined up.

I believe that people at the pool hall suspect I have lost my mind when I start playing this style but in truth I used to be able to play almost as well like this as I played on my good days with a more normal style. After a few racks of this wild pace I slow down and play normally but I think I come into the shots better.

I notice I am taking a lot of practice strokes lately. Why? I don't know. Going to try to cut down on them but since the extra practice strokes have came in without planning I may need them.

I have been messing with dominant eye and vision center alignment, I play like crap using either. With my head way to the right of my vision center I am comfortable and knocking balls in the hole. Seems like I always come to grief when I try to play pool "right" and do better when I let instinct take over.

Hu

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There is another thread going on right now about a recent Mark Wilson seminar in which he goes over his six step pre- and post-shot routine (post-shot being to check to see if the tip ended up on the target line). There is a good set of short videos to watch, and links are provided in the thread. I’d recommend to Chris and all (myself included) to follow the advice about slowing down the stroke in order to improve transition. But that’s not why I bring up this Mark Wilson lesson.

The relevant part is this:

Wilson emphasizes the point that aiming happens when standing behind the CB and is locked in when you have gotten down on the shot. If you don’t like it, get out of there, he says. The practice strokes are not to refine aiming, but instead to groove a feel for the length of stroke and therefore distance control. After the practice strokes comes another reset, with the tip stationary behind the CB. And then comes a slow backswing and accelerating forward stroke.

What Wilson says but doesn’t hammer home here is the importance of completely avoiding any aim refinements that involve movement of the tip from its original location behind the CB when you have first gotten down on the shot (whether that tip position is on the vertical axis or, because of an intention to apply English, to one side). The practice strokes must be thought of as distance calibration aids and/or tension relievers, but not aim adjusters. When we get down on a shot - most of the time on a good line that we saw and selected while standing - and then start taking practice swings to get our aim line, we are asking for trouble. Trouble comes because we start to question. Then doubt. Then consciously correct for perceived misalignment. Then subconsciously counter-correct (or over-counter-correct) when stroking because the subconscious knows that the original, conscious correction was mistaken. Also, if one’s bridge is at all iffy, the practice strokes can be, and can feel (or even be seen in one’s vision) wobbly, inconsistent or offline. This brings more doubt and concern and tension - typically leading to a rushed stroke that we think will somehow be on line because it was fast.

The practice swings are fine as long as one has the discipline to focus on anything but aim adjustment while making them. But if you are comfortable, and effective in controlling distance, without much by way of practice swings, all the better IMO. When I watch videos of the pros, they aren’t out there sawing wood.

In any case, set the aim at the front end. If you don’t like it, get out of there. This alone is a big, big challenge for me. Far too often I know that I am just a little off but proceed to hit the shot anyway, rationalizing that I can squeeze it in.

Seth,

After about fifty years most of my style is grooved in! Some of the things that Mark believes in, I agree, some I don't consider particularly important. That last full stop at the cue ball for example: We aimed standing, we grooved in our speed with our practice strokes, so why are we isolating ourselves from all of this with another stop?

Two things I wish I could carve in stone when I am trying to teach people, get up off the shot if it doesn't feel right, if you have to do it one time or five! Every single one of us is guilty of trying to force a shot sometimes. It is a duck, we can't really miss this?!? Yes, we can miss the ducks if they don't feel right!

Then there is the slow backswing, a transition, and the slow gathering of speed in the forward stroke. The slow backswing can be accomplished several ways, they all work. Slowing to a gentle transition, with or without a stop, and the slow start forward are the major keys to a good stroke in my opinion and one of the hardest things to get people to do. They are in a hurry to go forward and want to start with a jerk. I suspect that jerk misses more balls than all the other flaws combined!

Mark is one of the best instructors in the country and I certainly don't recommend his students disagreeing with him. I'll disagree slightly here and there, a little bit different theories of bio-mechanics we are following. One thing is in style for awhile, then another. "Right" depends on the theories of the moment. When we don't really know things as well as we think we do like how the brain, mind, and body work together, we follow the latest scientific theory as fact. Ten years or so later we have a new theory and it is fact now.

Quiet eye dates back to at least the mid-sixties, maybe a long time before. At this point why it works isn't as important as that it works. I wonder how many pool players use, or try to use, it? When do we use it and what do we focus that quiet eye on? I generally look at the object ball last but when I dedicated a few weeks to looking at the cue ball last I found it worked just as well. Then do we refine our gaze? Do we look at the spot the tip is hitting on the cue ball or the contact point or other target down there at the object ball?

In keeping with it not mattering once the shot is locked in I look at anything or nothing. If looking at the object ball is uncomfortable I might look at a point on the line between the cue ball and object ball, a point on a line projected past the object ball, or unlock my eyes and let them relax into a thousand yard stare not focused on anything at all looking down at blank cloth in front of me. None of this seems to harm ball pocketing percentages.

Having a few thoughts at the moment including chasing down a seven footer, all I have room for. If I start hitting balls daily again I may do just that. Let the rhythms and practices of decades overpower my efforts to shoot pool the way I read it is supposed to be done. The results can't be a whole lot worse!

Hu

Seth C. said:

There is another thread going on right now about a recent Mark Wilson seminar in which he goes over his six step pre- and post-shot routine (post-shot being to check to see if the tip ended up on the target line). There is a good set of short videos to watch, and links are provided in the thread. I’d recommend to Chris and all (myself included) to follow the advice about slowing down the stroke in order to improve transition. But that’s not why I bring up this Mark Wilson lesson.

The relevant part is this:

Wilson emphasizes the point that aiming happens when standing behind the CB and is locked in when you have gotten down on the shot. If you don’t like it, get out of there, he says. The practice strokes are not to refine aiming, but instead to groove a feel for the length of stroke and therefore distance control. After the practice strokes comes another reset, with the tip stationary behind the CB. And then comes a slow backswing and accelerating forward stroke.

What Wilson says but doesn’t hammer home here is the importance of completely avoiding any aim refinements that involve movement of the tip from its original location behind the CB when you have first gotten down on the shot (whether that tip position is on the vertical axis or, because of an intention to apply English, to one side). The practice strokes must be thought of as distance calibration aids and/or tension relievers, but not aim adjusters. When we get down on a shot - most of the time on a good line that we saw and selected while standing - and then start taking practice swings to get our aim line, we are asking for trouble. Trouble comes because we start to question. Then doubt. Then consciously correct for perceived misalignment. Then subconsciously counter-correct (or over-counter-correct) when stroking because the subconscious knows that the original, conscious correction was mistaken. Also, if one’s bridge is at all iffy, the practice strokes can be, and can feel (or even be seen in one’s vision) wobbly, inconsistent or offline. This brings more doubt and concern and tension - typically leading to a rushed stroke that we think will somehow be on line because it was fast.

The practice swings are fine as long as one has the discipline to focus on anything but aim adjustment while making them. But if you are comfortable, and effective in controlling distance, without much by way of practice swings, all the better IMO. When I watch videos of the pros, they aren’t out there sawing wood.

In any case, set the aim at the front end. If you don’t like it, get out of there. This alone is a big, big challenge for me. Far too often I know that I am just a little off but proceed to hit the shot anyway, rationalizing that I can squeeze it in.

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ShootingArts said:

Two things I wish I could carve in stone when I am trying to teach people, get up off the shot if it doesn't feel right, if you have to do it one time or five! Every single one of us is guilty of trying to force a shot sometimes. It is a duck, we can't really miss this?!? Yes, we can miss the ducks if they don't feel right!

Then there is the slow backswing, a transition, and the slow gathering of speed in the forward stroke. The slow backswing can be accomplished several ways, they all work. Slowing to a gentle transition, with or without a stop, and the slow start forward are the major keys to a good stroke in my opinion and one of the hardest things to get people to do. They are in a hurry to go forward and want to start with a jerk. I suspect that jerk misses more balls than all the other flaws combined!

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Agree 100%