The History of 9 Ball Pool???

pt109

pt109

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Bob Jewett said:
When player 2 took his first foul after player 1 was on a foul, it sounded like he didn't make the position worse when he could have. I assume that player 1 is required to make a good hit at that point.
Click to expand...

Yeah, whoever shoots now must make a good hit....
...and player 1 pushed perfect...there was no need to change whitey’s position.

Funny thing, I was betting $300 on that set...I won, but can’t remember who shot it.
...I just remember the clever decision....very subtle thinking under heat.
 
Gunn_Slinger

Gunn_Slinger

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Black-Balled said:
What is up with LT? He seems to have disappeared and I lost his#.

I did not document with whom I played, I just know that damn Fletcher was picking on me and always had some move to pull to get my 27$. Seemed like a nice guy, but he wasnt, was he? The first prob 5yr I played it was all 2 foul. Perhaps that was mainly at cue& chalk...with the Algers and stansbury and talal and Vern. In retrospect, I did like Vern, RIP.

My pockets are mostly like yours. They share the 1/4 dimension, but I think it is a 5 in front of it.
Click to expand...

LT doesn't seem to play much now. He retired with big money. Fletcher tried to bully everyone. He called fouls that weren't all the time.
Wow. You got action at cue & chalk ? Those guys never gave any. So I quit going. You know Talal works at Bank Shots in Laurel Md.
Duck vs Shoot..........lol.
TC buddy
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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pt109 said:
Yeah, whoever shoots now must make a good hit....
...and player 1 pushed perfect...there was no need to change whitey’s position.

Funny thing, I was betting $300 on that set...I won, but can’t remember who shot it.
...I just remember the clever decision....very subtle thinking under heat.
Click to expand...
I was confused, I think. Maybe I still am. If my opponent fouls and I shoot a ball in, is he off his fouls? Or can I run a couple of balls and then leave him hooked and on one foul?
 
Michael Andros

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
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Bob Jewett said:
I was confused, I think. Maybe I still am. If my opponent fouls and I shoot a ball in, is he off his fouls? Or can I run a couple of balls and then leave him hooked and on one foul?
Click to expand...

We always played 2 *consecutive shots by any player* fouls, same player. So, as we played, the answer to your question is, no... once you shoot, even if you don't make a ball, he's off the 1 foul hook.

So I push out. He shoots, misses but hooks me. I can push out again. The reason being my 2nd PO is the *3rd* consecutive shot.
 
VonRhett

VonRhett

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Bob,

You're over thinking it.

It's 2 shot foul per player, per inning.

So I make the 1-2-3, no shot on 4 so I push. Opponent looks at it, gives it back to me (just like push after break with TE).

Now I must hit the 4 and drive a rail, or I have 2-fouled and he gets BIH.

There's no running count across innings like the 3-Foul Rule you're accustomed to.

-von

PS Any balls made on foul shots are SPOTTED, and BIH is in the kitchen. So, yes, you can have a row of balls on the spot. Spot Shots, ba-by.

Bob Jewett said:
I was confused, I think. Maybe I still am. If my opponent fouls and I shoot a ball in, is he off his fouls? Or can I run a couple of balls and then leave him hooked and on one foul?
Click to expand...
 
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pt109

pt109

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Bob Jewett said:
I was confused, I think. Maybe I still am. If my opponent fouls and I shoot a ball in, is he off his fouls? Or can I run a couple of balls and then leave him hooked and on one foul?
Click to expand...

He’s still on one foul....till that game is over...doesn’t carry to the next game, though.
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

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I haven't sat down and tried to recall every little nuance of the game, but here is the way I remember playing it many decades ago. There may have been variances and adjustments, but this was the basic game.

Player 1 happens to be at the table after a legal shot has been made, either by himself or his opponent. Player 1 doesn't like the shot, for whatever reason (hooked, bad position, opponent safed him, etc.). Player 1 opts to "roll out" or what some called "push out" by shooting the cue ball anywhere on the table, but not making a legal hit on the object ball.

This is the FIRST foul.

Player 2 only had two options:

(1) shoot the shot as it lies and try to make a LEGAL shot, or
(2) pass the shot back to Player 1

Player 2 does not have the option to "push" out .

No matter which player takes the NEXT shot, that player must make a LEGAL hit on the object ball and a ball has to hit a rail or be pocketed.

If the player, who takes the shot, fouls, that is the SECOND foul.

The player who DIDN'T make the SECOND foul gets BIH.

If the object ball was behind the head string, it was spotted and the cue ball had to be placed behind the head string for a spot shot.

If the object ball was outside the head string, the cue ball could be placed anywhere like regular BIH.

There was NO carryover of fouls througout the game. Once a LEGAL shot was made by a player, all "push" fouls were erased until another "push" occurred.
 
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pt109

pt109

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HawaiianEye said:
I haven't sat down and tried to recall every little nuance of the game, but here is the way I remember playing it many decades ago. There may have been variances and adjustments, but this was the basic game.

Player 1 happens to be at the table after a legal shot has been made, either by himself or his opponent. Player 1 doesn't like the shot, for whatever reason (hooked, bad position, opponent safed him, etc.). Player 1 opts to "roll out" or what some called "push out" by shooting the cue ball anywhere on the table, but not making a legal hit on the object ball.

This is the FIRST foul.

Player 2 only had two options:

(1) shoot the shot as it lies and try to make a LEGAL shot, or
(2) pass the shot back to Player 1

Player 2 does not have the option to "push" out .

No matter which player takes the NEXT shot, that player must make a LEGAL hit on the object ball and a ball has to hit a rail or be pocketed.

If the player, who takes the shot, fouls, that is the SECOND foul.

The player who DIDN'T make the SECOND foul gets BIH.

If the object ball was behind the head string, it was spotted and the cue ball had to be placed behind the head string for a spot shot.

If the object ball was outside the head string, the cue ball could be placed anywhere like regular BIH.

There was NO carryover of fouls througout the game. Once a LEGAL shot was made by a player, all "push" fouls were erased until another "push" occurred.
Click to expand...
Why I wouldn’t play with those rules.....
...why should player 1 make the first foul....and get the advantage of shooting his pet shot...
...or putting player 2 under the gun....player 2 has NOT made a foul.

If you had seen the game played “two fouls by the same player” I feel you would’ve seen
the beauty of it...I want to be responsible for MY fouls...not share the responsibility of yours.
To me, it made roll out a much more interesting game...and favored the one who shot best...
...which all sets of rules should...the onus remains on the one who fouled.

Remember...a push is a foul...even if it’s a non-penalized one.
 
Michael Andros

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pt109 said:
Why I wouldn’t play with those rules.....
...why should player 1 make the first foul....and get the advantage of shooting his pet shot...
...or putting player 2 under the gun....player 2 has NOT made a foul.

If you had seen the game played “two fouls by the same player” I feel you would’ve seen
the beauty of it...I want to be responsible for MY fouls...not share the responsibility of yours.
To me, it made roll out a much more interesting game...and favored the one who shot best...
...which all sets of rules should...the onus remains on the one who fouled.

Remember...a push is a foul...even if it’s a non-penalized one.
Click to expand...

H.E. is talking 2 fouls any player ( of course ) which I know was played in some areas. Down here, we never played anything other than 2 fouls, same player, but ONLY on his ( or her ) **consecutive** shots. So if I RO and my opponent shoots, misses and hooks me, I can ( and would ) RO again. And I'm like H.E. in that it's been 35 years or so since I played RO so I may be confused on a few points but I am 99% sure the only time we could RO is if we were hooked. If you played bad shape or were left a tough shot, you had to go for it.
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

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pt109 said:
Why I wouldn’t play with those rules.....
...why should player 1 make the first foul....and get the advantage of shooting his pet shot...
...or putting player 2 under the gun....player 2 has NOT made a foul.

If you had seen the game played “two fouls by the same player” I feel you would’ve seen
the beauty of it...I want to be responsible for MY fouls...not share the responsibility of yours.
To me, it made roll out a much more interesting game...and favored the one who shot best...
...which all sets of rules should...the onus remains on the one who fouled.

Remember...a push is a foul...even if it’s a non-penalized one.
Click to expand...

It is the same concept that they use in today's games when they have "push out" after the break.

Whomever is legally at the table for the first shot after the break may "push out" and their opponent has to shoot it or pass it back. In either case, if the shooter makes a foul after the "push", the other player gets BIH.

The only difference is that the "push" is allowed throughout the game, not only on the first shot after the break.

In today's game, if somebody pushes out after the break and then a foul occurs and subsequently a legal shot is made afterward, the person who originally pushed isn't assessed that foul for the rest of the game.

Player 1 and Player 2 both have the opportunity to push during the game. It isn't as though one guy gets all the pushes. If you don't like his push, don't take the shot and pass it back...and vice versa.

If you think the other guy is a better "pusher" than you, then maybe you should just not play or ask for some sort of spot.

I used to think I could "out shoot" and "out push" most everybody. If your shooting was off a little, you used more "pushes" to keep control of the table. If your shooting was on, you didn't need to push as often. If your shooting was on and your pushing was effective, you usually were hard to beat.

Pushes were ways of antagonizing or confusing your opponent. They were like "bluffs". The opponent didn't know if you were pushing out to your favorite shot or just scared. If they thought you were scared, they may give the shot back. If you then "fired it in", they became hesitant to pass shots back. They didn't know which shots you would go for and which shots you were just playing safe on.

Unless my opponent pushed out to something that I thought was "next to impossible", I usually would take his "push" because I figured I could do with it just as well as he could.
 
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pt109

pt109

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HawaiianEye said:
It is the same concept that they use in today's games when they have "push out" after the break.

Whomever is legally at the table for the first shot after the break may "push out" and their opponent has to shoot it or pass it back. In either case, if the shooter makes a foul after the "push", the other player gets BIH.
I don’t agree with that either...I like a push back option.
The only difference is that the "push" is allowed throughout the game, not only on the first shot after the break.

In today's game, if somebody pushes out after the break and then a foul occurs and subsequently a legal shot is made afterward, the person who originally pushed isn't assessed that foul for the rest of the game.

Player 1 and Player 2 both have the opportunity to push during the game. It isn't as though one guy gets all the pushes. If you don't like his push, don't take the shot and pass it back...and vice versa.

If you think the other guy is a better "pusher" than you, then maybe you should just not play or ask for some sort of spot.

I used to think I could "out shoot" and "out push" most everybody. If your shooting was off a little, you used more "pushes" to keep control of the table. If your shooting was on, you didn't need to push as often. If your shooting was on and your pushing was effective, you usually were hard to beat.

Pushes were ways of antagonizing or confusing your opponent. They were like "bluffs". The opponent didn't know if you were pushing out to your favorite shot or just scared. If they thought you were scared, they may give the shot back. If you then "fired it in", they became hesitant to pass shots back. They didn't know which shots you would go for and which shots you were just playing safe on.

Unless my opponent pushed out to something that I thought was "next to impossible", I usually would take his "push" because I figured I could do with it just as well as he could.
Click to expand...
Bugs had a period when I felt he was the best banker in the world....
...so he had lots of banks he liked that nobody else could fade him on...
...why should he get that advantage by making a FOUL?

We both know how we played 9-ball...I’m asking what the better set of rules are.
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

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pt109 said:
Bugs had a period when I felt he was the best banker in the world....
...so he had lots of banks he liked that nobody else could fade him on...
...why should he get that advantage by making a FOUL?

We both know how we played 9-ball...I’m asking what the better set of rules are.
Click to expand...

It seems like a lot of people who respond on here feel that they were the "underdog" in this game. If you feel that you can't "out push" or "out shoot" your opponent, then why are you even playing?

Until proven otherwise, I always "thought" I could win, or, otherwise, I wouldn't have been playing.

Bugs may have been the best banker in the world, but he couldn't regularly bank out an entire game of 9-ball. You don't have to push out to a bank that allows him to make it. Even if he does make it, there are places you can push to that won't allow him to bank it and also get position.

That is how you "figured out" your opponent.

If I know you can make "whatever" shot and then get position, I'm NOT going to push out to that shot. I'm going to push out to a shot that you CAN'T make and get position or a shot that will force you to play a defensive shot.

In my case, I always thought I was going to win or, at worst, break even. I always thought my advantage was that I had more "pool time" under my belt than my opponent. By that, I mean I grew up in a pool hall and played thousands and thousands of hours and for money as a teenager. Very few people, except pros, have accumulated that many hours at the table.

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. I will say that my win rate was way, way, way, way higher than my losing rate...especially if you played me long enough.

I was the type of player who had to be beat "convincingly" in order to call it a day. As long as I had money, the place was open, and I didn't have to leave for work or some reason, I'd be playing for days.

I've ran over people like a Mac truck in a hurry and I've also been down and then came back to bust people once I started hitting some "packs" over and over.

As long as we were playing "the same game", I always thought my opponent was the underdog.
 
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pt109

pt109

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HawaiianEye said:
It seems like a lot of people who respond on here feel that they were the "underdog" in this game. If you feel that you can't "out push" or "out shoot" your opponent, then why are you even playing?

Until proven otherwise, I always "thought" I could win, or, otherwise, I wouldn't have been playing.

Bugs may have been the best banker in the world, but he couldn't regularly bank out an entire game of 9-ball. You don't have to push out to a bank that allows him to make it. Even if he does make it, there are places you can push to that won't allow him to bank it and also get position.
t What about when Bugs pushes out to a bank that he likes and you don’t?
That is how you "figured out" your opponent.

If I know you can make "whatever" shot and then get position, I'm NOT going to push out to that shot. I'm going to push out to a shot that you CAN'T make and get position or a shot that will force you to play a defensive shot.

In my case, I always thought I was going to win or, at worst, break even. I always thought my advantage was that I had more "pool time" under my belt than my opponent. By that, I mean I grew up in a pool hall and played thousands and thousands of hours and for money as a teenager. Very few people, except pros, have accumulated that many hours at the table.

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. I will say that my win rate was way, way, way, way higher than my losing rate...especially if you played me long enough.

I was the type of player who had to be beat "convincingly" in order to call it a day. As long as I had money, the place was open, and I didn't have to leave for work or some reason, I'd be playing for days.

I've ran over people like a Mac truck in a hurry and I've also been down and then came back to bust people once I started hitting some "packs" over and over.

As long as we were playing "the same game", I always thought my opponent was the underdog.
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You still haven’t declared what you think is the better set of rules ....
...which is what this thread means to me.
How about the jump specialists today...if they push into a jump shot on me, I want the
liberty of pushing back to a kick...or even a tough shot that can be seen.

For me, the first to foul should be at a disadvantage
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

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pt109 said:
You still haven’t declared what you think is the better set of rules ....
...which is what this thread means to me.
How about the jump specialists today...if they push into a jump shot on me, I want the
liberty of pushing back to a kick...or even a tough shot that can be seen.

For me, the first to foul should be at a disadvantage
Click to expand...

I don't think I've ever played the way you described playing. I'd have to play it first to make a determination. In either case, I have to think I have the best of it or why would I even play?

There was no jumping back in the day. At least, not with a specialized cue.

If I am playing Bugs, I have to think I have the "edge" or why would I even be playing?

If I know he can bank and he pushes to a bank that allows him to make it and then get position to run out, I'm not going to give him the shot back when he offers it to me. I will either try to bank it myself or put the ball into a position that I think will allow me to get back to the table.

To me, I never considered the "push" to really be a FOUL. I considered it to be a legal, strategic, move. The FOUL came afterward if the next shooter made it.

That is why I never called the game "two foul". If you notice, I've always called it "two shot roll out".

In reality, only one foul occurs before BIH. The push isn't a foul in my book, just like it isn't considered a foul today when they use a push after the break. If you push on the break today and then make a foul, it isn't considered two fouls.
 
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pt109

pt109

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HawaiianEye said:
I don't think I've ever played the way you described playing. I'd have to play it first to make a determination. In either case, I have to think I have the best of it or why would I even play?

There was no jumping back in the day. At least, not with a specialized cue.

If I am playing Bugs, I have to think I have the "edge" or why would I even be playing?

If I know he can bank and he pushes to a bank that allows him to make it and then get position to run out, I'm not going to give him the shot back when he offers it to me. I will either try to bank it myself or put the ball into a position that I think will allow me to get back to the table.

To me, I never considered the "push" to really be a FOUL. I considered it to be a legal, strategic, move. The FOUL came afterward if the next shooter made it.

That is why I never called the game "two foul". If you notice, I've always called it "two shot roll out".

In reality, only one foul occurs before BIH. The push isn't a foul in my book, just like it isn't considered a foul today when they use a push after the break. If you push on the break today and then make a foul, it isn't considered two fouls.
Click to expand...
I’ve read a lot of your posts, and I think you’re a good player and a good guy.
..we’re usually on the same team on NPR also.
I was a part time road player....and I introduced ‘two fouls by the same player” a lot of times..
...if I saw them years later, they were still playing that way...they liked it...
...and I think you would too.
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

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pt109 said:
I’ve read a lot of your posts, and I think you’re a good player and a good guy.
..we’re usually on the same team on NPR also.
I was a part time road player....and I introduced ‘two fouls by the same player” a lot of times..
...if I saw them years later, they were still playing that way...they liked it...
...and I think you would too.
Click to expand...

In just about any game, I think the "best" person usually will win.

"Best" isn't limited to just shot making, it includes a variety of skills, as you well know.

That is why all the old guys usually gravitate to one-pocket in their later years. Even though their shot making skills may have diminished, they still have a greater "knowledge" of the "game" than most of their younger opponents and will win in the end.

Anybody who has thousands of hours table time while gambling will usually pick up the "moving" part of the game or either they will never be a consistent winner. You can't rely on your shooting skills to work every day, but, hopefully, your brain will work every day.

I've "out smarted" lots of people who were firing on all cylinders on me, while I was getting a slow start. The push can slow a lot of people down if it is used smartly.

That is one reason I don't like the current rules in 9-ball. There aren't enough "dimensions" to the game. Everything is repetitive and I can predict almost every shot when I'm watching them play.

In the old days, you'd see a lot of "swinging for the wall", but today it is all "bunting".
 
9

9 Ball Fan

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pt109 said:
You still haven’t declared what you think is the better set of rules ....
...which is what this thread means to me.
How about the jump specialists today...if they push into a jump shot on me, I want the
liberty of pushing back to a kick...or even a tough shot that can be seen.

For me, the first to foul should be at a disadvantage
Click to expand...


The more people describe that old style 9 Ball, the less I like it. I'm positive I like Texas Express better. Although, I agree with Earl Strickland. You ought to have to kick at the ball. He jumps, but only because everyone else does. He'd rather everyone kick at it.
 
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