The History of 9 Ball Pool???

[pt109]

And the absolute WORST rule on the planet?? THREE FOUL RULE!!
Whoever thought that somebody should WIN without making a single ball, let alone the 9-ball, doesn't understand sports.

The three-foul rule is for those who understand stalemates.
..the first to foul is always under the gun...and that’s fair.

</rant>

Suffice to say, I highly prefer and dearly miss 2-Shot Foul 9-Ball. THE game for purists.

-von

I was one of the resisters when Texas Express came around.
...even in the mis-80s, I was still gambling with roll-out.
..mind you, I would only play “two fouls by the same player”...
...I wanted the option of pushing back.

But eventually, I started letting my opponents choose which rules...
...I played snooker and one-pocket, so I was equipped to hit and get hooks.

I loved the ups and downs of ‘roll-out’....the dynamics would change in a session...
...when your opponent got scared to say “Shoot again”...you started pushing tougher.

But kicking safe became an important skill in TE....and who can forget Efren’s Z-shot?

They’re both good ways to play 9-ball...but I hated TE at first....
...so I can understand those who miss ‘roll-out’....I do too.

 

[Michael Andros]

I was one of the resisters when Texas Express came around.
...even in the mis-80s, I was still gambling with roll-out.
..mind you, I would only play “two fouls by the same player”...
...I wanted the option of pushing back.

But eventually, I started letting my opponents choose which rules...
...I played snooker and one-pocket, so I was equipped to hit and get hooks.

I loved the ups and downs of ‘roll-out’....the dynamics would change in a session...
...when your opponent got scared to say “Shoot again”...you started pushing tougher.

But kicking safe became an important skill in TE....and who can forget Efren’s Z-shot?

They’re both good ways to play 9-ball...but I hated TE at first....
...so I can understand those who miss ‘roll-out’....I do too.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

You guys are dreaming.

I will give you that amongst folks who take 4+ innings a game, there are a lot of lucked leaves, but at the pro level, there is absolutely no rational reason that an incoming shooter- as a result of either his or his opponent's leave- should not be required to make legal contact from the given lie.

LOLOL. Well, here we are again BB ! Duck vs shoot. I don't remember you or anybody at westmont playing pushout except with me ! By 89' when I came back to pool, the game was 1 foul. I usually had to give weight to get someone to play pushout ! Only one who liked it was LT...and me ! My offer still stands buddy: I play pushout and you play one foul. Your GC or mine ! lol
ps
mine are 4 1/4. what are your's ?

 

[HawaiianEye]

...even in the mis-80s, I was still gambling with roll-out.
..mind you, I would only play “two fouls by the same player”...
...I wanted the option of pushing back.


................................and who can forget Efren’s Z-shot?

Are you saying you could "push" back on a "push"?

If so, I've never played that way.

The way we played was that somebody had to shoot after the first push, whether it was the opponent or the original player who was given the shot back.

And as far as Efren's Z-shot goes, that was a FLUKE, just like a lot of other "do or die" shots. Hitting the ball to keep from fouling is one thing, but to hit it PERFECTLY to go in the pocket is a one in a million shot that even Efren didn't have any idea he would make. He was kicking and HOPING.

I've seen way better "do or die" shots in games than that z-shot, but they were FLUKES, just as well.

 

[pt109]

Are you saying you could "push" back on a "push"?

If so, I've never played that way.

The way we played was that somebody had to shoot after the first push, whether it was the opponent or the original player who was given the shot back.

And as far as Efren's Z-shot goes, that was a FLUKE, just like a lot of other "do or die" shots. Hitting the ball to keep from fouling is one thing, but to hit it PERFECTLY to go in the pocket is a one in a million shot that even Efren didn't have any idea he would make. He was kicking and HOPING.

I've seen way better "do or die" shots in games than that z-shot, but they were FLUKES, just as well.

Frank the Barber and I discussed this a few years back...like you, he’d only played “any
two fouls”.....maybe it was an Eastern thing...but when I played on the West Coast, I still
insisted on “two fouls by the same player”....I figured the first push is a foul, albeit a non
-penalized foul....so why should a player be able to make a foul and push to a shot he likes
...which I may not like....by being able to push back to a shot I do like, the onus remains
on the player who made the first foul.

If a guy pushed out to a bank on James Christopher, he would push back to a fine cut...
...now they’re both on one foul, and a good decision has to be made by the original fouler.
.....James was great at fine cuts.

Most of the 9-ball action I saw at the Rack was “two fouls by the same player”

The only time I played otherwise was in the Carolinas back then....
...it was ring game rules, even head on...and I got a kick out of it...”fire at everything”

 

[Black-Balled]

LOLOL. Well, here we are again BB ! Duck vs shoot. I don't remember you or anybody at westmont playing pushout except with me ! By 89' when I came back to pool, the game was 1 foul. I usually had to give weight to get someone to play pushout ! Only one who liked it was LT...and me ! My offer still stands buddy: I play pushout and you play one foul. Your GC or mine ! lol
ps
mine are 4 1/4. what are your's ?

What is up with LT? He seems to have disappeared and I lost his#.

I did not document with whom I played, I just know that damn Fletcher was picking on me and always had some move to pull to get my 27$. Seemed like a nice guy, but he wasnt, was he? The first prob 5yr I played it was all 2 foul. Perhaps that was mainly at cue& chalk...with the Algers and stansbury and talal and Vern. In retrospect, I did like Vern, RIP.

My pockets are mostly like yours. They share the 1/4 dimension, but I think it is a 5 in front of it.

 

[Michael Andros]

Are you saying you could "push" back on a "push"?

If so, I've never played that way.

The way we played was that somebody had to shoot after the first push, whether it was the opponent or the original player who was given the shot back.

And as far as Efren's Z-shot goes, that was a FLUKE, just like a lot of other "do or die" shots. Hitting the ball to keep from fouling is one thing, but to hit it PERFECTLY to go in the pocket is a one in a million shot that even Efren didn't have any idea he would make. He was kicking and HOPING.

I've seen way better "do or die" shots in games than that z-shot, but they were FLUKES, just as well.

And not only did he MAKE it but he played PERFECT shape on the next ball... Yeah. It was a fluke. But it sure was PURTY. :grin:

 

[Michael Andros]

The only time I played otherwise was in the Carolinas back then....
...it was ring game rules, even head on...and I got a kick out of it...”fire at everything”

Talking about ring games made me think about this... and it's a bit off-track but anyway, here it is.

I was playing in a ring game ( circa 78 maybe ) and Tall Dave from Philly runs 2 from the snap. Next break, he's dry. I run out. As I'm waiting to break, he looks at me and he's actually a bit put off and he says "I just ran 2 racks. You can't run out!" I said "I'm sorry, Dave... I won't do it again..."

But I lied. I ran out a few more times.

 

[poolguy4u]

.



No, I never heard of pushing after a push. It was always any two fouls in a row----ball in hand.




.

 

[garczar]

.



No, I never heard of pushing after a push. It was always any two fouls in a row----ball in hand.




.

We always played you COULD push after a push. That puts puts both players on one foul. Two consecutive fouls by same player resulted in BIH. So in a back-2-back push scenario the next shot has to be legal or its BIH for somebody. This didn't happen very often. Usually after a push somebody shot at something(or played a legal safe). So much strategy in this game. I loved it. I still like 9ball but the current version pales in comparison imo.

 

[pt109]

.



Where I'm from, we played push-out usually when we didn't have a shot.

If you were good at bank shots you pushed to a bank shot.

If you were good at cut shots, you pushed to cut the ball.

(That’s why I played “two fouls by the same player”[
..so I can push back....now we’re both on one foul/))

I think to win at nine ball you need to make the nine. That three foul rule is bullshit.

Quote

Tournament in NYS...years ago....we’re playing 3 fouls=loss of game
He makes a bad hit on the 1-ball...leaves it in the jaws of a corner
..another ball beside it...and another ball blocking the cue ball path to get up table...
...where the 2-ball is froze to another ball...run-out is unlikely
So I roll another ball onto the 1-ball.....he looks confused...gets ball-in-hand..
...rolls another ball towards the 1-ball.....I tap the cue ball...say “You’re on two fouls.”
...it dawns on him what he did...

THAT’S why you play the 3-foul rule...otherwise that game becomes a stalemate.
...no having a 3-foul rule is worse bull shit

 

[cuesblues]

TOTALLY AGREE WITH MICHAEL!!

TX Express has ruined 9-ball.

You don't think pushing out was defense?? You had to fully understand your strengths and weaknesses, AND those of your opponent.

That's what determined how and when you pushed out, NOT when you accidentally got out of line and had no shot.

If anything, TE is much more offensive (in every sense of the word). You either B&R, or you duck. That's it.

And the absolute WORST rule on the planet?? THREE FOUL RULE!!
Whoever thought that somebody should WIN without making a single ball, let alone the 9-ball, doesn't understand sports.

3 Foul Rule is like getting a Participation Trophy. With a Reach-Around.

</rant>

Suffice to say, I highly prefer and dearly miss 2-Shot Foul 9-Ball. THE game for purists.

-von

Something I never forgot was back in the late sixties, I was a teenager playing for 10 bucks a game.
I pushed out on the nine, the guy looked at me and said "oh, you think I can't shoot"
and he drilled the 9.

The good old days of 9ball before Texas express.
Also back when you could go out and play pool, when a league didn't have the tables reserved

 

[Black-Balled]

.



No, I never heard of pushing after a push. It was always any two fouls in a row----ball in hand.
.

But you must admit that peetie's rationalization is a good case for it, no?

It is kind of odd that a shooter who doesn't like a shot he played safe for can roll out to his specialty...with no consequence, while the other player has no such option.

 

[ShootingArts]

PT, I used to love the rare occasions a timed shot was possible to lock a ball in the jaws and another jammed in front of it. There are people that can jump into the back rim of a pocket and escape but I have never had it done to me.



For those looking for two foul push out there were some comparatively recent tournaments played that way and video was posted to youtube. Might try searching the likely terms. "Scotty Townsend" or "Country Calvin" might work. Seems like one of their tournaments but I have slept since I knew which one.

Hu

 

[jrctherake]

If a player is a strong kicker, banker as well as.....shotmaker, well, it really, really.....really will not matter which rules are used. They will be the winner in the long run....period.

 

[jay helfert]

Garczar was correct. Texas Express was created by the three directors of the McDermott tour to speed up the matches, and it worked. So well in fact that Richie Florence incorporated it into his Caesar's tournaments in the early 80's (over my strenuous objections) so that the TV matches could fit a one hour time frame. That worked out fairly well also, with less editing of the matches that were shown on ESPN.

That said. "Push-Out" 9-Ball was a far more difficult and nuanced game to play, with far less luck involved and more strategy than we see today. True, the best players had an even greater advantage, as well they should. I can only imagine Efren playing that way. Let's just say he would have won a lot more 9-Ball tournaments.

 

[pt109]

We always played you COULD push after a push. That puts puts both players on one foul. Two consecutive fouls by same player resulted in BIH. So in a back-2-back push scenario the next shot has to be legal or its BIH for somebody. This didn't happen very often. Usually after a push somebody shot at something(or played a legal safe). So much strategy in this game. I loved it. I still like 9ball but the current version pales in comparison imo.

One of the good things about playing “two fouls by the same player” was you could play
a thin cut safety off his push...if you missed it altogether, that was your first foul...
...if you got a hook, he had to hit it or you got cue ball in hand.

Another interesting thing about being able to push back.....the Rack...late 70s

The Anniversaries had all been shimmed by the rubber from an old truck tire.
..table 4 had one corner pocket that might spit balls out going down the rail.

...playing a set for 5 gs, 9-ball froze, middle of the short rail...cue ball froze on the same rail....by the pocket
......8-ball froze on the long rail, 1.5 diamonds from the trap pocket...
...the guy pushes 6 inches off the end rail, about an inch from the same long rail...
...the other guy looks at it...if he shoots, he has to draw it back a long way...
...if it spits out, he’ll be pissed, but if he says “Shoot again”, the other guy has a clear mind..
...he HAS to shoot it...so the quandary is, he has indecision in his head if he shoots it...
...he studied it for a long time, then he tapped the cue ball...turned the problem over to
his opponent...if he has to shoot now, he’ll have a clear mind.

Roll out offered some interesting situations that don’t exist at Texas Express

 

[Bob Jewett]

One of the good things about playing “two fouls by the same player” was you could play
a thin cut safety off his push...if you missed it altogether, that was your first foul...
...if you got a hook, he had to hit it or you got cue ball in hand.

Another interesting thing about being able to push back.....the Rack...late 70s

The Anniversaries had all been shimmed by the rubber from an old truck tire.
..table 4 had one corner pocket that might spit balls out going down the rail.

...playing a set for 5 gs, 9-ball froze, middle of the short rail...cue ball froze on the same rail....by the pocket
......8-ball froze on the long rail, 1.5 diamonds from the trap pocket...
...the guy pushes 6 inches off the end rail, about an inch from the same long rail...
...the other guy looks at it...if he shoots, he has to draw it back a long way...
...if it spits out, he’ll be pissed, but if he says “Shoot again”, the other guy has a clear mind..
...he HAS to shoot it...so the quandary is, he has indecision in his head if he shoots it...
...he studied it for a long time, then he tapped the cue ball...turned the problem over to
his opponent...if he has to shoot now, he’ll have a clear mind.

Roll out offered some interesting situations that don’t exist at Texas Express

Maybe I don't understand the 2-on-same rules. What prevented player 2 from putting the cue ball into an even worse position, like on the jaw of the near pocket?

 

[pt109]

Maybe I don't understand the 2-on-same rules. What prevented player 2 from putting the cue ball into an even worse position, like on the jaw of the near pocket?

They were now both on one foul, Bob
...either player is now committed to a good hit if he shoots

 

[Bob Jewett]

They were now both on one foul, Bob
...either player is now committed to a good hit if he shoots

When player 2 took his first foul after player 1 was on a foul, it sounded like he didn't make the position worse when he could have. I assume that player 1 is required to make a good hit at that point.