Racking

PoolBoy1 · Jan 15, 2015

Racking over and over at the opponents request is slowing good streaming matches down. 1 re rack if an opponent racks type tournament is enough.

Last weekend's matches hosted by AZB and NY City Grind was hard to watch some matches. Constant re racking., Although the finals I believe had no re racks needed.

Poolmanis · Jan 15, 2015

That is why Magic Rack is so good. Match time is used to playing not racking. Another one is neutral racker and you can check rack but cannot get re-rack or maybe 1 time whole match.

Atlatlien · Jan 15, 2015

Correct me if I'm wrong

Didn't they start Turning Stone requiring the Magic Rack (since they were a main sponsor), then had to ditch it because it wasn't holding the balls together?

They were using a triangle in the last couple of days on the TV table, right?

CJ Wiley · Jan 15, 2015

Racking the 9-Ball on the spot would stop much of this nonsense about racking.

Poolmanis said:
That is why Magic Rack is so good. Match time is used to playing not racking. Another one is neutral racker and you can check rack but cannot get re-rack or maybe 1 time whole match.

The problem with the magic rack is it creates a "dead ball" in the corner pocket. It's more like a trick shot than a break shot.

Racking the 9-Ball on the spot would stop much of this nonsense about racking.

RiverCity · Jan 15, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The problem with the magic rack is it creates a "dead ball" in the corner pocket. It's more like a trick shot than a break shot.

Racking the 9-Ball on the spot would stop much of this nonsense about racking.

But moving it forward makes the 1 in the side easier to make without having to pull it as much with follow on the cb.
I think the rack should be a half diamond further away from the breaker, as that takes away the corner, the one, and the nine. Might even bring back the hard break.....

Chuck

RBC · Jan 15, 2015

Just turn the rack sideways instead of longways.

Try it.

Royce

The Renfro · Jan 15, 2015

Atlatlien said:
Didn't they start Turning Stone requiring the Magic Rack (since they were a main sponsor), then had to ditch it because it wasn't holding the balls together?

They were using a triangle in the last couple of days on the TV table, right?

Accu-Racks don't have that issue... Hoping to have the time and budget to get behind them this year... We have the SOLO and a new 9ball template for the guys that have to have a dedicated rack for it... We used it in new Jersey playing 8ball in the make it happen event and everyone had good things to say about them.....

sjm · Jan 15, 2015

The Renfro said:
Accu-Racks don't have that issue... Hoping to have the time and budget to get behind them this year... We have the SOLO and a new 9ball template for the guys that have to have a dedicated rack for it... We used it in new Jersey playing 8ball in the make it happen event and everyone had good things to say about them.....

Agreed. Those racks at the Sandcastle event in New Jersey worked very well.

CJ Wiley · Jan 16, 2015

What needs to be eliminated is the dead-ball in the corner pocket

Chuck Fields said:
But moving it forward makes the 1 in the side easier to make without having to pull it as much with follow on the cb.
I think the rack should be a half diamond further away from the breaker, as that takes away the corner, the one, and the nine. Might even bring back the hard break.....
Chuck

The one in the side isn't any easier, although it does require a different tip-target on the cue ball (cut-break). What needs to be eliminated is the dead-ball generated by the magic rack, or players racking their own. It's equivalent to Barry Bonds hitting off a ball machine, or tossing the baseball up and hitting it out of the park. :boring:

The Renfro · Jan 16, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The one in the side isn't any easier, although it does require a different tip-target on the cue ball (cut-break). What needs to be eliminated is the dead-ball generated by the magic rack, or players racking their own. It's equivalent to Barry Bonds hitting off a ball machine, or tossing the baseball up and hitting it out of the park. :boring:

So how hard should the break be?? Well how difficult? Should it be 100% random and up to the pool goods to make a ball? How about about the same as a spot shot? That would be close to 100% for the guys that practice.... 70%? This is where the arguments always fall down... If you hit the break good should you know you get your reward or have to hope? If you hit it bad shouldn't you know it when it leaves the tip of your cue?

So some less than great players learn the break shot... The percentages still are at best 52-60% in favor of the breaker and if you take the guys out that actually "practice" it we are back to the late 80s early 90s stats of grip it and rip it where Fleming says you are better off without the break....

May favorite comment about the break was from the Open a few years ago when Sigel and Earl got beat by some kid from MN.... I watched Sigel's match and it was awesome... he hit the rack the same speed from the same spot every time and never made a ball... his comment to the crowd was I hit em dead perfect every time.. Hard and hope.... Insanity really doesn't have the definition of doing the same thing over and over expecting different results but that day... That definition worked.......

CJ Wiley · Jan 16, 2015

From our research only 1% of the general public would watch pool on TV

The Renfro said:
So how hard should the break be?? Well how difficult? Should it be 100% random and up to the pool goods to make a ball? How about about the same as a spot shot? That would be close to 100% for the guys that practice.... 70%? This is where the arguments always fall down... If you hit the break good should you know you get your reward or have to hope? If you hit it bad shouldn't you know it when it leaves the tip of your cue?

So some less than great players learn the break shot... The percentages still are at best 52-60% in favor of the breaker and if you take the guys out that actually "practice" it we are back to the late 80s early 90s stats of grip it and rip it where Fleming says you are better off without the break....

May favorite comment about the break was from the Open a few years ago when Sigel and Earl got beat by some kid from MN.... I watched Sigel's match and it was awesome... he hit the rack the same speed from the same spot every time and never made a ball... his comment to the crowd was I hit em dead perfect every time.. Hard and hope.... Insanity really doesn't have the definition of doing the same thing over and over expecting different results but that day... That definition worked.......

The advantage of the breaker shouldn't be more than a percentage or two.

I like what Pat did where there was a mandatory roll out after the break. This is a good start, however, it still leaves some issues when producing a TV show. I've studied how entertainment effects human nature, and if there isn't an emotional attachment, the viewer averages 3 minutes before changing channels.

From our research only 1% of the general public would watch pool on TV, and even that 1% will probably average 3-5 minutes. This does present a production problem and to pursue outside the industry sponsors would be fruitless.

I presume people may watch longer on the web streamed matches, however, that doesn't do much for the game's growth and long-term vitality.

The game we have developed covers these issues, however, as you know "the knockers," won't like it no matter what. The true pool enthusiasts are in for a treat, because if all they've seen is "one-foul" it's only about 10-20% of the game's potential.

RiverCity · Jan 16, 2015

The Renfro said:
So how hard should the break be?? Well how difficult? Should it be 100% random and up to the pool goods to make a ball? .

Yes, thats the way it was intended to be, and still should be. Pool isnt supposed to be setting up a cluster trick shot to start each game. With every "advancement" pool has had over the last several years, the game has suffered, and now its to the point where the game at the pro level is pretty much a joke. When racking and reracking takes longer than running a rack of 9 ball, something is wrong. Everybody keeps thinking of ways to change the rules or come up with new games to supposedly make it harder, all the while creating money making opportunities with "new and/or improved" equipment. News flash, the game WAS harder with slower cloth, no jump sticks or other various gimmicky equipment. Rules used to favor a strong offense and now the rules favor safety play.
With all these steps we have supposedly taken forward, it sure seems like the game has taken a giant leaps backwards when you compare the game of 25+ years ago to today. Shortsighted progress usually turns out to not be progress in the long run.
Rant over
Chuck

jojopiff · Jan 16, 2015

Well played CJ. You got into a topic that you can say something antagonistic:

CJ Wiley said:
The one in the side isn't any easier, although it does require a different tip-target on the cue ball (cut-break). What needs to be eliminated is the dead-ball generated by the magic rack, or players racking their own. It's equivalent to Barry Bonds hitting off a ball machine, or tossing the baseball up and hitting it out of the park. :boring:

You then get a response...

The Renfro said:
So how hard should the break be?? Well how difficult? Should it be 100% random and up to the pool goods to make a ball? How about about the same as a spot shot? That would be close to 100% for the guys that practice.... 70%? This is where the arguments always fall down... If you hit the break good should you know you get your reward or have to hope? If you hit it bad shouldn't you know it when it leaves the tip of your cue?

So some less than great players learn the break shot... The percentages still are at best 52-60% in favor of the breaker and if you take the guys out that actually "practice" it we are back to the late 80s early 90s stats of grip it and rip it where Fleming says you are better off without the break....

May favorite comment about the break was from the Open a few years ago when Sigel and Earl got beat by some kid from MN.... I watched Sigel's match and it was awesome... he hit the rack the same speed from the same spot every time and never made a ball... his comment to the crowd was I hit em dead perfect every time.. Hard and hope.... Insanity really doesn't have the definition of doing the same thing over and over expecting different results but that day... That definition worked.......

That can bridge to something that you can then bridge to your "new idea", "new game", "tv habits", "one foul", "80's/90's".... It's annoying reading your posts, same old drivel in every one.

CJ Wiley said:
The advantage of the breaker shouldn't be more than a percentage or two.

I like what Pat did where there was a mandatory roll out after the break. This is a good start, however, it still leaves some issues when producing a TV show. I've studied how entertainment effects human nature, and if there isn't an emotional attachment, the viewer averages 3 minutes before changing channels.

From our research only 1% of the general public would watch pool on TV, and even that 1% will probably average 3-5 minutes. This does present a production problem and to pursue outside the industry sponsors would be fruitless.

I presume people may watch longer on the web streamed matches, however, that doesn't do much for the game's growth and long-term vitality.

The game we have developed covers these issues, however, as you know "the knockers," won't like it no matter what. The true pool enthusiasts are in for a treat, because if all they've seen is "one-foul" it's only about 10-20% of the game's potential.

Icon of Sin · Jan 16, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The problem with the magic rack is it creates a "dead ball" in the corner pocket. It's more like a trick shot than a break shot.

Racking the 9-Ball on the spot would stop much of this nonsense about racking.

You're wrong. USOpen 2014... More specfically both sets with Dechaine and Orcollo. Not to mention some others... It creates all new Nonsense...

DAVE_M · Jan 16, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The advantage of the breaker shouldn't be more than a percentage or two.

Why? The whole point of lagging it to decide who will get to break the first rack. So you are saying that I have to use SKILL to win the lag, so I can have a chance at being LUCKY on the break... What a crock of sh*t.

The magic rack speeds up the entire process, even if that means a ball is wired every time.

I like Chuck's idea of pushing the rack back a half diamond or whole diamond.

CJ Wiley · Jan 16, 2015

The slick/fast cloth has been the core of an additional problem

DAVE_M said:
Why? The whole point of lagging it to decide who will get to break the first rack. So you are saying that I have to use SKILL to win the lag, so I can have a chance at being LUCKY on the break... What a crock of sh*t.

The magic rack speeds up the entire process, even if that means a ball is wired every time.

I like Chuck's idea of pushing the rack back a half diamond or whole diamond.

The break in pool is similar to shuffling cards, it was never intended to make the game so much easier, it's just necessary to create the next game's unique situations. Breaking and running out is not exciting, especially if it looks too easy.

The slick/fast cloth has been the core of an additional problem (besides taking the power-stroke out of the game), it allows the breaker to dominate the game.....and that's why the racking has become such an "art form," and an unnecessary problem waiting to happen again, and again, and again.

HawaiianEye · Jan 16, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The slick/fast cloth has been the core of an additional problem (besides taking the power-stroke out of the game)

THIS, BIH, and jump cues have ruined pool for any entertainment value for watchers.

Poolmanis · Jan 16, 2015

CJ Wiley said:
The problem with the magic rack is it creates a "dead ball" in the corner pocket. It's more like a trick shot than a break shot.

Racking the 9-Ball on the spot would stop much of this nonsense about racking.

Ah. We have been rackin 9-ball on spot probably 8 years now at every tournament here in Finland. I did not remember there U.S your tournaments are always different rules.. :wink:
Some tournaments also have that kitchen rule also..

Poolmanis · Jan 16, 2015

I haven't been national championships 6 years now but I believe they have also breakbox at 9-ball. 10-ball they have opposite breakbox that you have to shoot outside of the 9-ball breakbox...

Edit: Open tournaments they don't have usually breakboxes at all.

PoolBoy1 · Jan 16, 2015

Atlatlien said:
Didn't they start Turning Stone requiring the Magic Rack (since they were a main sponsor), then had to ditch it because it wasn't holding the balls together?

They were using a triangle in the last couple of days on the TV table, right?

yes but no problems at the final.

Racking

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