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View Poll Results: Who is correct?
Player B is correct and should get paid 24 60.00%
Player A is correct and shouldn’t have to pay 16 40.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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08-03-2020, 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
If I jump into a ten ball ring game in a pool hall, I assume anything goes...
...if I make the ten on the break, I expect to get paid.

If someone wants to cite the latest rules of any organization, he should've declared before
a ball was struck..
Call shot , call shot with the option, ten doesn't count on the break or in certain pockets,
ten must be made in order.....these are Johnny come lately rules....say that's how you
want to play....I'll probably decide not to play......
....but I don't want to hear that the latest fad is the ONLY way to play.

Ten ball has been around a long time...traditionally played like nine ball.
!0 ball was traditionally played just like 9 ball??? Why bother adding the 10th ball then?? To me it seems kinda silly to play 10b just like 9b where slop counts, I was under the impression that 10b has always been a call shot game and thats what really separated it from 9 ball.
  
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08-03-2020, 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastone371 View Post
!0 ball was traditionally played just like 9 ball??? Why bother adding the 10th ball then?? To me it seems kinda silly to play 10b just like 9b where slop counts, I was under the impression that 10b has always been a call shot game and thats what really separated it from 9 ball.
The better players used to play 10 ball in ring games because it was too easy for them to run out with 9 ball. The rules were the same but with one more ball. The simplest possible change.

That was done long before the current official rules of 10 ball which were invented specifically to be different from 9 ball.


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08-03-2020, 12:49 PM

So far 27 people have voted and it's now 14-13. Even us pool gods on AZB can't come to an agreement.

That's proof that you have to establish rules BEFORE the game. That pretty much goes for all pool and billiard games.

Last edited by TX Poolnut; 08-03-2020 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Spelling
  
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08-03-2020, 07:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TX Poolnut View Post
So far 27 people have voted and it's now 14-13. Even us pool gods on AZB can't come to an agreement.

That's proof that you have to establish rules BEFORE the game. That pretty much goes for all pool and billiard games.
I didn't vote but my vote is available for either option for the right amount of jelly beans.
  
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08-04-2020, 08:42 AM

I know this is an old thread but I'll chime in.

Lacking History
I don't know a lot of the history of pool through the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I don't expect many younger players do either. About the first 15 years of playing pool for me was all 8 ball and 9 ball. So I didn't look into 10 ball, banks, or 1 pocket until more recently. All I have to go off of is currently published rules or watching more recent matches on YouTube.

Essence of 10 Ball
So for me 10 ball has never been 9 ball with an extra ball. Without knowing it's exact history, it's only ever been what it is today which I interpret as being similar to 9 ball but taking more of the "Texas Express" out of it. And the posted rules are all I have to go off of.

10 Ball on the Snap
Normally I wouldn't assume the 10b on the break is a winner given published rules. And I always assume "racker's corners" rules only apply to rack your own. And I would also wonder if "racker's corners" rules make sense in 10b anyway because the rack shape is different and I'm not sure there's common unintentional (or intentional) gap configuration that'll make the 10 ball favor those pockets like it does in 9 ball.

Ring Games
But, in the end it is a ring game. So money is meant to be paid often. I've just never encountered a 10ball ring game before. I remember really being confused trying to learn all the rules and etiquette of a 9 ball ring game but I could tell the people teaching me have seen it hundreds of times. I'm not sure the same could be said of 10 ball ring games in terms of local experts. It does feel like it needs to be talked through first given how 10 ball is already a bit like 8 ball in terms of various house rules.

Last edited by MattPoland; 08-04-2020 at 08:53 AM.
  
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08-04-2020, 09:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPoland View Post
I know this is an old thread but I'll chime in.

Lacking History
I don't know a lot of the history of pool through the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I don't expect many younger players do either. About the first 15 years of playing pool for me was all 8 ball and 9 ball. So I didn't look into 10 ball, banks, or 1 pocket until more recently. All I have to go off of is currently published rules or watching more recent matches on YouTube.

Essence of 10 Ball
So for me 10 ball has never been 9 ball with an extra ball. Without knowing it's exact history, it's only ever been what it is today which I interpret as being similar to 9 ball but taking more of the "Texas Express" out of it. And the posted rules are all I have to go off of.

10 Ball on the Snap
Normally I wouldn't assume the 10b on the break is a winner given published rules. And I always assume "racker's corners" rules only apply to rack your own. And I would also wonder if "racker's corners" rules make sense in 10b anyway because the rack shape is different and I'm not sure there's common unintentional (or intentional) gap configuration that'll make the 10 ball favor those pockets like it does in 9 ball.

Ring Games
But, in the end it is a ring game. So money is meant to be paid often. I've just never encountered a 10ball ring game before. I remember really being confused trying to learn all the rules and etiquette of a 9 ball ring game but I could tell the people teaching me have seen it hundreds of times. I'm not sure the same could be said of 10 ball ring games in terms of local experts. It does feel like it needs to be talked through first given how 10 ball is already a bit like 8 ball in terms of various house rules.
I've been in a 10 ball ring game. If you are the outsider you have to outrun the nuts to get the cash.
  
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08-04-2020, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastone371 View Post
!0 ball was traditionally played just like 9 ball??? Why bother adding the 10th ball then?? To me it seems kinda silly to play 10b just like 9b where slop counts, I was under the impression that 10b has always been a call shot game and thats what really separated it from 9 ball.
I like that you are so surprised. You wouldn't be alone. And now that WPA 10-ball rules have been around for 15 years or so, less and less people remember how traditional 10-ball was played. Even some of the early TAR matches, the rules used for the 10-ball challenges were in flux. And of course today's Big Foot Challenge is played old school (no call).

Aside from gamboling and ring games in the 70's, professional 10-ball events were played in the late 1980's and early 1990's, no call shot just like 9-ball. It was clearly a different game than 9-ball due to the break leaving so many balls in the middle of the table. That one extra ball and the pyramid rack made way more than just a 10% difference. Remember that we didn't have template racks and the cloth hadn't transitioned to Simonis 860 yet. Combine that all, and 10-ball was some 25% more difficult than 9-ball. Players like Allen Hopkins perfected the "1-ball in the side pocket" break.

10-ball, because of the layouts leaving balls in the center of the table, was much more difficult to runout. And making nothing on the break was the norm as there wasn't the automatic wing ball on the break.

10-ball was my practice game for over 20 years before the WPA surprised us with changing to calling shots. I totally understand whythe WPA changed the rules so that 10-ball could stand on its own apart from 9-ball as a World Championship discipline, but the rules were changed. Older players who loved 10-ball already are going to hold grudges.


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Last edited by Cornerman; 08-04-2020 at 10:39 AM.
  
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08-04-2020, 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
I like that you are so surprised. You wouldn't be alone. And now that WPA 10-ball rules have been around for 15 years or so, less and less people remember how traditional 10-ball was played. Even some of the early TAR matches, the rules used for the 10-ball challenges were in flux. And of course today's Big Foot Challenge is played old school (no call).

Aside from gamboling and ring games in the 70's, professional 10-ball events were played in the late 1980's and early 1990's, no call shot just like 9-ball. It was clearly a different game than 9-ball due to the break leaving so many balls in the middle of the table. That one extra ball and the pyramid rack made way more than just a 10% difference. Remember that we didn't have template racks and the cloth hadn't transitioned to Simonis 860 yet. Combine that all, and 10-ball was some 25% more difficult than 9-ball. Players like Allen Hopkins perfected the "1-ball in the side pocket" break.

10-ball, because of the layouts leaving balls in the center of the table, was much more difficult to runout. And making nothing on the break was the norm as there wasn't the automatic wing ball on the break.

10-ball was my practice game for over 20 years before the WPA surprised us with changing to calling shots. I totally understand whythe WPA changed the rules so that 10-ball could stand on its own apart from 9-ball as a World Championship discipline, but the rules were changed. Older players who loved 10-ball already are going to hold grudges.


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Thank you for the great explanation. I always thought 10 ball was invented to eliminate the luck part and prevent players from riding the 9 ball all night. Its not something you see pros and high level players do but when you get to the lower end of the skill spectrum I think some guys specialize in riding the 9. You know, those combo, kick, bank, carom shots on the early 9 ball. I have always preferred 10 ball, the only stipulation we play tournaments by that is out of the ordinary is that 10 on the break and early 10 combos count............as long as it is called just to speed things up.
  
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08-04-2020, 01:29 PM

The premise of the question is biased based upon failing to consider all of the real world outcomes.
It assumes that there has to be a winner to the game. it must be A or B which is hardly the situation.
Every fool knows the 8 is in the middle or the 9 and the 10 when playing 8, 9, and 10 ball. It’s in the rules.
So it was never a legal rack. Besides even if you insist it was, the 3rd outcome is a do over. Just re-rack.
Neither player wins and the previous incorrectly racked balls that just pocketed the 10 ball doesn’t count.


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08-04-2020, 06:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavafongoul View Post
... the 8 is in the middle or the 9 and the 10 when playing 8, 9, and 10 ball. It’s in the rules.
So it was never a legal rack. ...
I believe the 10 was in its proper spot in the rack.


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08-04-2020, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gxman View Post
First break, Russian Kenny and DD/Roy arguing over the rules. Kenny broke, the 10b and cue ball dropped.

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08-05-2020, 03:34 PM

The OP wrote that the 10 ball was in a racking corner, not the middle, which is how the dispute arose.
I’ve never played in a ring game where the 5 ball was positioned in a corner location for that reason.
There are some players, not myself, with a great break & corner rack OB often drop in side pockets.

Personally, since 10 ball is played using intentionally called pockets, I submit the 10 should only count
if and when the player intentionally designated the 10 ball pocket before the break. If another ball drops,
the player that broke the rack does not retain the table since the 10 ball did not go in the called pocket.
If a different OB drops on the break rather than the10 ball, the player’s inning ends & gives up the table.

If you have the nuts to call the 10 ball on the break, go for it, But counting the 10 ball on the break & also
not calling the intended pocket makes it a 9 ball break. In other words, slopping the 10 in a pocket wins.
Nope, I believe there should be zero slop in 10 ball unless the specific pocket was named before the break.


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08-05-2020, 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavafongoul View Post
The OP wrote that the 10 ball was in a racking corner, not the middle, which is how the dispute arose.
...
What the OP said was:
While playing a 10 ball ring game player A racks the balls and player B breaks and makes the 10 ball in one of the racking corners.

I take that to mean that the 10 ball was made in one of the foot pockets.

You take that to mean that the 10 ball was racked in a corner position in the rack.

Maybe the OP could clarify.


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08-05-2020, 06:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
What the OP said was:
While playing a 10 ball ring game player A racks the balls and player B breaks and makes the 10 ball in one of the racking corners.

I take that to mean that the 10 ball was made in one of the foot pockets.

You take that to mean that the 10 ball was racked in a corner position in the rack.

Maybe the OP could clarify.
There’s no question that the 10-ball was racked correctly, and it dropped (rocketed straight ) in a foot corner pocket.


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08-06-2020, 05:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The better players used to play 10 ball in ring games because it was too easy for them to run out with 9 ball. The rules were the same but with one more ball. The simplest possible change.

That was done long before the current official rules of 10 ball which were invented specifically to be different from 9 ball.
There you go. That's how we played Ring Ten Ball for years, with the same rules as 9-Ball. Adding one ball made running the rack about 20% harder imo.
By the way, it's MUCH harder to make the 10 on the break than it is to make the 9 ball. It may only happen once out of forty or fifty racks, if that.


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