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07-19-2019, 05:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I don't know if this is what Matt means, but there's really no such technique as "parallel english" because you can't make shots with it. For the vast majority of sidespin shots the cue has to be angled across the shot line, not parallel with it, or the shot will miss because of squirt/swerve.

Some people say "parallel english" to mean they just apply sidespin by feel, without thinking about how the cue is angled. To them it might seem like it's parallel, but if they're making shots it mostly isn't.


Is the bridge hand on the shot line or beside it?

pj
chgo
"Pivot" should likely be "pivoted", but bridge hand on shot line, diagonal stroke

"Offset" bridge hand on shot line, straight stroke


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07-19-2019, 08:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I don't know if this is what Matt means, but there's really no such technique as "parallel english" because you can't make shots with it. For the vast majority of sidespin shots the cue has to be angled across the shot line, not parallel with it, or the shot will miss because of squirt/swerve.

Some people say "parallel english" to mean they just apply sidespin by feel, without thinking about how the cue is angled. To them it might seem like it's parallel, but if they're making shots it mostly isn't.


Is the bridge hand on the shot line or beside it?

pj
chgo
My understanding of parallel English is that you pick a new shot line. The new shot line will be determined mainly by three variables: object ball distance from cue ball, shot speed, and how much english is going to be used. Once this new shot line is determined then you make a parallel shift to this new shot line.

Low deflection shafts are helpful with parallel english because it helps keep the new shot line close to the original shot line.
  
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07-19-2019, 08:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
a pivot stroke and an offset stroke cause the same section of cue tip to strike the same point on the cue ball, one parallel to the shot line, one diagonal to the shot line, for different cue ball action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Is the bridge hand on the shot line or beside it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
"Pivot" should likely be "pivoted", but bridge hand on shot line, diagonal stroke

"Offset" bridge hand on shot line, straight stroke
So in both cases the bridge hand is in the same place? If that's true, I don't see how the two techniques can make the same shot.

Maybe "shot line" means different things in each case?

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 07-19-2019 at 08:31 AM.
  
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07-19-2019, 08:33 AM

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Originally Posted by anbukev View Post
My understanding of parallel English is that you pick a new shot line. The new shot line will be determined mainly by three variables: object ball distance from cue ball, shot speed, and how much english is going to be used. Once this new shot line is determined then you make a parallel shift to this new shot line.

Low deflection shafts are helpful with parallel english because it helps keep the new shot line close to the original shot line.
So your definition of "shot line" is whatever line the cue needs to be on to compensate correctly for squirt/swerve (not the line the CB will go on)?

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07-19-2019, 08:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by anbukev View Post
My understanding of parallel English is that you pick a new shot line. The new shot line will be determined mainly by three variables: object ball distance from cue ball, shot speed, and how much english is going to be used. Once this new shot line is determined then you make a parallel shift to this new shot line.

Low deflection shafts are helpful with parallel english because it helps keep the new shot line close to the original shot line.
I think the only interpretation that makes sense for "parallel english" is that the cue stick is parallel to the line of the cue stick for a no-english shot. So, if you are hitting a ball full with left follow the cue stick would be pointing to the same place on the object ball as it points on the cue ball:

Name:  CropperCapture[345].png
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Here is the definition from Dr. Dave's glossary:
parallel english: aiming technique when using sidespin where the cue is placed parallel to the line of aim for a center-ball hit (with no sidespin) resulting in no compensation for CB deflection (e.g., for shots where swerve is expected to cancel the effects of squirt and throw, resulting in no net CB deflection, or where the amount of resulting pocket cheat is acceptable).


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07-19-2019, 12:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
So in both cases the bridge hand is in the same place? If that's true, I don't see how the two techniques can make the same shot.

Maybe "shot line" means different things in each case?

pj
chgo
I follow what you're saying, but one can visualize and execute a straight stroke, parallel to center cue ball, or a butt-to-tip line stroke, two different directions of the cue tip through Point X:

Name:  Drop - Pool Diagrams - English Types 3.jpg
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07-19-2019, 01:34 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I follow what you're saying, but one can visualize and execute a straight stroke, parallel to center cue ball, or a butt-to-tip line stroke, two different directions of the cue tip through Point X:

Attachment 525065
How does the cue/tip on the left move parallel to the centerball line without sliding the bridge forward during the stroke?

P.S. If the tips are moving in different directions through Point X, then the CB moves in different directions too.

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chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 07-19-2019 at 01:37 PM.
  
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07-22-2019, 05:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
How does the cue/tip on the left move parallel to the centerball line without sliding the bridge forward during the stroke?

P.S. If the tips are moving in different directions through Point X, then the CB moves in different directions too.

pj
chgo
I thought you were advocating a shot line straight stroke, after offsetting at address? It would be more efficient IMHO than a parallel stroke since the tip edge is preset on the diagonal plane.

A straight stroke is possible to do with a short stroke, since with, for example, a half tip of english 1) the cue stick is turned diagonal only a half tip along its entire length 2) there is room for movement within most hand bridges 3) the cb doesn't care about post-impact cue stick movement.

You've also described a possible swoop stroke, the cue is rushing forward at speed with slight deviation and the hand bridge may break down past cb impact.


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07-22-2019, 09:40 AM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I thought you were advocating a shot line straight stroke, after offsetting at address?
...
A straight stroke is possible to do with a short stroke, since ... there is room for movement within most hand bridges
Really? This nonsense is what you thought I was advocating?

Quote:
You've also described a possible swoop stroke, the cue is rushing forward at speed with slight deviation and the hand bridge may break down past cb impact.
Since we clearly don't speak the same language, I won't even try to guess what you think you mean here.

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07-22-2019, 11:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Really? This nonsense is what you thought I was advocating?


Since we clearly don't speak the same language, I won't even try to guess what you think you mean here.

pj
chgo
A tip of english turns the cue diagonal only fractions of an inch along it's 58- or whatever-inch length.

Are you saying you offset the cue for english first, than move your stroke hand straight back and forth, parallel to center cue ball, or diagonal, butt-to-tip?

I've defined terms for you both ways above earlier in the thread, and your angry responses look like you might play english by feel and are hesitant to commit. I'm not trying to entrap you, I'm answering your questions!


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07-22-2019, 02:18 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
Are you saying you offset the cue for english first, than move your stroke hand straight back and forth, parallel to center cue ball...?
That's what you think "pivot first, then stroke straight" means? It's basic non-swooping backhand english; there shouldn't be any confusion about this for an instructor.

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07-22-2019, 03:37 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I thought you were advocating a shot line straight stroke, after offsetting at address? It would be more efficient IMHO than a parallel stroke since the tip edge is preset on the diagonal plane.

A straight stroke is possible to do with a short stroke, since with, for example, a half tip of english 1) the cue stick is turned diagonal only a half tip along its entire length 2) there is room for movement within most hand bridges ..... 3) the cb doesn't care about post-impact cue stick movement.

You've also described a possible swoop stroke, the cue is rushing forward at speed with slight deviation and the hand bridge may break down past cb impact.
If the CB doesn't care about post impact cuestick movement then why should it care about pre impact cuestick movement? Because that's what you're saying when you imply you'll achieve different CB action with a swoop stroke as opposed to back hand english even though tip contact and shaft angle at moment of contact are exactly the same.
  
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07-23-2019, 04:26 AM

Let me give you guys a brief history on how we aimed with the swoop stroke, since I was there back when lots of 9 ball players were using it and I used it myself. Here's the complicated aiming system with the swoop stroke:

We aimed as if we were using no side spin. Now, there were exceptions, of course, like long shots, where we then adjusted our aim slightly.

That's it, folks. It wasn't this big long complicated thing. The swoop stroke is a feel stroke. If you're the type of player who needs calculations in your game, this stroke is not for you.
  
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07-23-2019, 04:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
That's what you think "pivot first, then stroke straight" means? It's basic non-swooping backhand english; there shouldn't be any confusion about this for an instructor.

pj
chgo
One may stroke "butt-to-tip diagonal" or "straight back-and-forth parallel to shot line", and this might be the fourth (?) time I've asked you which you do, since we instructors like to find out what the student is actually doing or claiming to do.

Why is there no confusion about this for any instructor, by the way? Do you have a manual you recommend that goes beyond "aim here for english" to show that a diagonal stroke is to be employed? Perhaps that would explain why so many pros and instructors swoop?


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07-23-2019, 05:00 AM

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Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
If the CB doesn't care about post impact cuestick movement then why should it care about pre impact cuestick movement? Because that's what you're saying when you imply you'll achieve different CB action with a swoop stroke as opposed to back hand english even though tip contact and shaft angle at moment of contact are exactly the same.
That is an outstanding question, thanks.

It is impossible to influence the cb after it leaves the cue tip. I agree with you.

There are three factors, not two, at the moment of impact, however, tip contact, shaft angle, and the direction the cue stick traveled into impact.

A visualization can help you understand the third factor. Imagine you have elevated the cue stick to 30 degrees above the table for a jump shot. Now bring the cue stick forward gently, so that the cue tip comes to rest on the cue ball impact point--using the two factors for the jump shot, the tip contact and the shaft angle that you mentioned.

Next, broom or push the cue stick forward rather than down into the cue ball, so that the cue ball rolls forward rather than jumping into the air.


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Last edited by BilliardsAbout; 07-23-2019 at 05:12 AM.
  
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