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Ginacue popped over ivory, hopefully much or all fake.
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ShootingArts
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Ginacue popped over ivory, hopefully much or all fake. - 07-29-2016, 06:17 AM

I have warned for years that it is a crapshoot playing games with customs shipping cues with ivory or toting them in and out the country. Now Ernie has gotten nailed with something he may not have realized was even a crime, he sold to someone who turned around and exported the cues or cue pieces with ivory. The sentence isn't a small one, potentially ten years, and with Ginicue's high profile they may well make an example out of him. Doing any time at all will absolutely suck in your late seventies!

If you are going to own ivory and move it across borders be very sure you know the laws and have proper documentation. In this case Ernie Gutierrez just sold to someone who then broke the law. Apparently, customs is claiming foreknowledge or something.

Pool makes international news, as usual it is with a black eye.

Hu



"Seventy-five-year-old Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez surrendered Thursday. He's accused of aiding and abetting illegal exportation - which can carry a 10-year prison term."
  

Ginacue article
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Ginacue article - 07-29-2016, 06:18 AM

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_301830...elephant-ivory

Link for review...

I hope for Ernie's sake it all goes away. This is crazy...
  
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07-29-2016, 06:25 AM

all may be not what it seems............ the cue maker sold materials or cues with ivory and they were worth $75,000 to $85,000. They were going home to Taiwan.........

I believe he knew where the cues were going.............

So........ maybe it's time to rethink putting ivory in cues.......

Kim


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Pure BS
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Pure BS - 07-29-2016, 06:33 AM

How can they prove that Ernie is using illegal ivory. He has been making cues for a good amount of time and has had stock forever. If he can prove that the ivory was legal, what charges can they come with?

This does make everyone (cuemaker and collectors) rethink high-end cues with Ivory.

Wishing Ernie all the best! Although I see this being an expensive endeavor. Hopefully some of his past clients are lawyers and are able to help out.


  
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07-29-2016, 06:36 AM

Stiff sentence for selling ivory ...... A wrist slap for armed robbery, assault, murder. I'm speechless.




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exporting
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exporting - 07-29-2016, 06:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSach View Post
How can they prove that Ernie is using illegal ivory. He has been making cues for a good amount of time and has had stock forever. If he can prove that the ivory was legal, what charges can they come with?

This does make everyone (cuemaker and collectors) rethink high-end cues with Ivory.

Wishing Ernie all the best! Although I see this being an expensive endeavor. Hopefully some of his past clients are lawyers and are able to help out.

The ivory can be totally legal when you buy it, it is still a crime to export it from a CITE signee with few exceptions. Ginacue isn't accused of using illegal ivory but of aiding and abetting the illegal export of probably legal ivory.

Forty cue butts or so, Taiwanese nationals I believe, the claim is likely to be that Ernie knew the butts were for export. He probably did. Selling cues one at a time for decades that are then hauled overseas it no doubt seemed like no big deal to sell a bunch. Someone else got burned pretty big over four cues they exported themselves but this is the first time I have even heard of aiding and abetting being applied.

Hu
  
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07-29-2016, 06:50 AM

A few comments:

A few years back I was in Ernie's shop, having some repair work done, and he showed me some of the anniversary cues he was working on. I brought up the issue of ivory and he told me that his ivory was waaaaaaay pre-ban and from elephants that had died decades and decades earlier. I seem to recall that he knew the country of origin and even the circumstances of the elephant's death. So, given the way he spoke I would be relatively certain he has appropriate documentation.

The newspaper story makes it sound like customs stumbled on these cues in someone's luggage and perhaps the purchaser was scared and said anything and everything to try and save themselves. Proving that Ernie is ever aware of what happens to his cues once they leave his shop will probably be a tall order.

The other things is that given what Ernie gets for his cues, over a long career, I'm guessing he can afford a very good lawyer.

Lou Figueroa
  
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07-29-2016, 06:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
The ivory can be totally legal when you buy it, it is still a crime to export it from a CITE signee with few exceptions. Ginacue isn't accused of using illegal ivory but of aiding and abetting the illegal export of probably legal ivory.

Forty cue butts or so, Taiwanese nationals I believe, the claim is likely to be that Ernie knew the butts were for export. He probably did. Selling cues one at a time for decades that are then hauled overseas it no doubt seemed like no big deal to sell a bunch. Someone else got burned pretty big over four cues they exported themselves but this is the first time I have even heard of aiding and abetting being applied.

Hu
I don't think much will happen to Ernie

It's like saying every gun shop is selling all their guns for criminal intent. If the guns were purchased legally, what can the gun shop owners do?
  
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07-29-2016, 07:03 AM

Will be really interesting to see how this shakes out. I really hope Ernie is able to get out of this, my guess is with good representation he probably can, but who knows. And who knows how much that will cost him.

Sad to hear of it happening to such a legendary cue maker.

"41 sections of a cue"....so I'm guessing we're talking about 13ish cues with 1 butt, 2 shafts each meaning 39 "sections"...plus a couple extra shafts?
  
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07-29-2016, 07:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
A few comments:

A few years back I was in Ernie's shop, having some repair work done, and he showed me some of the anniversary cues he was working on. I brought up the issue of ivory and he told me that his ivory was waaaaaaay pre-ban and from elephants that had died decades and decades earlier. I seem to recall that he knew the country of origin and even the circumstances of the elephant's death. So, given the way he spoke I would be relatively certain he has appropriate documentation.

The newspaper story makes it sound like customs stumbled on these cues in someone's luggage and perhaps the purchaser was scared and said anything and everything to try and save themselves. Proving that Ernie is ever aware of what happens to his cues once they leave his shop will probably be a tall order.

The other things is that given what Ernie gets for his cues, over a long career, I'm guessing he can afford a very good lawyer.

Lou Figueroa
I agree with all of this. I believe it's a VERY TALL order they can prove what ANYONE is going to do with their purchased cues once they take possession and while " they " may try to say this I think it's very unrealistic to expect him to know at all whatsoever what will happen with his product once sold. With all that being said, I'm pretty sure he will get off - after much BS! SAD, VERY SAD that this is the best use they can find with out tax dollars. Maybe, just maybe our tax dollars might be better spent trying to keep us, US Human's safe, as opposed to an animal????
  
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07-29-2016, 07:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post

Proving that Ernie is ever aware of what happens to his cues once they leave his shop will probably be a tall order.
Possibly. On the other hand, maybe the buyer emailed Ernie and specifically mentioned that he was going to be coming to town from Taiwan and wanted some cues to take back with him. That is complete speculation, of course, but until we see how this plays out we have no idea whether the case is weak or strong.


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07-29-2016, 07:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GideonF View Post
Possibly. On the other hand, maybe the buyer emailed Ernie and specifically mentioned that he was going to be coming to town from Taiwan and wanted some cues to take back with him. That is complete speculation, of course, but until we see how this plays out we have no idea whether the case is weak or strong.

And perhaps Ernie told said buyer, "Shipping them out of the country is illegal."

Once they leave his shop they are the property of the guy who paid. Put them in a display case, play pool with them, resell them, set them on fire. He has zero control.

Lou Figueroa
  
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07-29-2016, 08:12 AM

There's also a California ban on selling ivory to anyone. We can play this anyway we want. It isn't about being able to afford a good lawyer. It sucks and I hope him the best through what will certainly be a trying time.
  
What's next
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What's next - 07-29-2016, 08:21 AM

This has been a much discussed topic on this forum for quite a while now. Matt has gone over the details and we've had posts with the actual statute or law recited.

I feel terrible for Ernie; and wish him the very best of luck with this nightmare.

I've read the posts and it seems as though most, (like at least 95 percent) of the cues with ivory would fall under the weight and other exemptions.

So the average guy may have a cue with ivory butt cap and/or joint and/or ferrule.

Now he can't sell it to someone in another state, especially the one listed like NY and CA.

So, if I ship one of my cues with very minimal ivory, buttcap and joint, out of NY I read it as thou I am breaking the law; even if I just carry the cue on a plane to Vegas or anywhere out of NY.

But, I don't see how the cue builder could be liable at all.

Would a cue owner/seller or purchaser who travels, send or recives such a cue (minimal ivory) interstate be criminally liable?

I know its' a mess, but most of these cues are many years old; certainly before the passage of this act.

This will be a hot topic and I know we all wish Ernie the best.

Dave


link with some info https://www.fws.gov/international/tr...d-answers.html


Under the "de-minimis" exception, (I) seems like the hardest to prove. That it came into US before 1990.

The 50 percent and value component would likely be self evident.

I guess we need to start contact cue builders and get letters from them or some documentation.

Anyone want an old piano (made in 1977)?

Last edited by dvs; 07-29-2016 at 08:49 AM.
  
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07-29-2016, 08:27 AM

If the goal is to stop penalize poachers and illegal traffickers, then this is an example of an ineffective law.


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