How much does equipment matter, and what's the minimum to be legit?

Just my opinion on your questions.

I don't think you will find any competition play on anything other than 4 1/2 x 9 tables , so I think that would be the standard , but nothing wrong with playing on an oversize 8 or regular 8 footer if thats all that is available to you , some say its actually harder to play straight on an 8 because you will get more clusters.

Your describing your speed in 8 ball and 9 ball , but can't get up to the same speed in 14.1 , sounds as if your shotmaking is good and position play is good , so I would say you are not playing your patterns correctly in straight.

As far as an "intermediate" player , thats a tough one as far as meaning , because "intermediate" level compared to what level? world class level? competative pro level? state level? local level? .........I think to give a measure , consistancy is key , how many balls are you running "consistantly" when you have opportunity, if your running 40-50 consistantly your doing very well , when you talk about innings you must figure safety play is factored into the equation , 2 innings would be world class level where to 2 high runners were at it.

On the equipment , 4 1/2 pockets seems to be the consencous on being standard , if you have 5 1/4 pockets and simonis cloth then I believe that should increase your consistancy some , good players will adjust to the rolls , especially if any amount of time is spent on that table. You say the balls jaw sometimes too, good players will use pocket speed most of the time and get away from that as much as possible, I guess what I am saying is with buckets like that you give a pro 2 hours playing time to adjust to the table and they will run balls until the cows come home.

I have found over time clean balls and table with fast cloth makes for the best runs. Pocket size comes into play of course but less and less the better I play. My high run (126) came on a perfect table IMO a GC3 that had double shims (@4.5") Simonis cloth that was new but broken in, Centennial balls red circle CB.

Sometimes I find super tight tables will demand your attention making you play better. On the other hand, if the table is too tight you can't cheat the pocket a little when it's needed from time to time.
Gerry

Well I'd find it hard pressed to find anyone who ponders this question more than I. I've had my share of 40s, I've been as hight as 78 but thats certainly not the norm. I fully expect to run into the high 20s or mid 30s every game I play to 100, and I do, but thats a far cry from the guys that run 100s.

After wondering, and playing, and watching, straight pool for many many years, (over 40) I have come to one conclusion.

While patterns can be blamed, I simply and sadly have determined that for me (and I'll bet most other B+ / A players) ending a run usually happens by missing. The shots I miss to end runs are shots that are commonly made on a pool table. Rarely is the cause of a run stopping being locked up.

So, long story short, I just miss. Pisses me off too. As I get older, it seems that steeper cuts (not crazy cuts) trigger the negative thoughts and confidence waivers and pretty soon, I just miss.

I watch many accustats 14.1 matches and shot making simply isn't an issue at all to these players. If the ball goes, they make it. Now, if I could do that all the time, I'll bet my runs would improve. I don't know the secret. I guess some people just "see em" better than others.

I truely consider myself teetering between B+ and A, being held back soley because of inconsistancy. In my mind there is absolutely no shot I can't make with position, if the right "ME" comes to the table. LMAO, if its the wrong "ME" all bets are off.

Now with that said, I play perhaps 5 hrs a week. Practice bores the hell out of me and I've just never been able to do that with any degree of intensity.

Recently Dave K has pointed out a drill / game / self challenge that I found sparked my ability to practice.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=45710

Still, 5 hrs a week as opposed to the pros who probably play more than 5hrs a day, expecting too much more than where I'm at is asking for quite a bit.

I've gone so far as consider hypnotism to help concentrate. If I wasn't such I "non believer" in it, I'd spend the bucks and try. It is truely frustrating when you know you have the talent to play very well, but inconsistancys throw that huge wrench in the works.

Creedo, the pros do calculate exactly what ball and where on that ball they are going to hit on a break shot , you want to hit the ball intended in the rack full if possible, and not between 2 balls in the rack, its easier to get away from the rack that way , its a matter of adjusting the speed and english of your shot to hit where you want in the rack , but try setting up and practicing break shots , use 1 tip outside english draw , start by using 1 tip below center draw , then using both the 1 tip outside & 1 tip below center try different speeds on the same exact break shots however you set them up , you will see with a slight adjustment in speeds you can direct the cb to hit a ball in the rack full and draw away from the rack. if the breakball is low in the rack and you think you are going to only hit the corner ball in the rack then use a medium follow shot , don't hit that one to hard as you need to let the follow take or you will scratch.

3andstop said:

Well I'd find it hard pressed to find anyone who ponders this question more than I. ........ but thats a far cry from the guys that run 100s.

After wondering, and playing, and watching, straight pool for many many years, (over 40) I have come to one conclusion.

While patterns can be blamed, I simply and sadly have determined that for me (and I'll bet most other B+ / A players) ending a run usually happens by missing.

Click to expand...

Trey-man,
I feel that you are right on target. The thing that separates the amateur from the pro in straight pool is BALL POCKETING, BALL POCKETING, BALL POCKETING!!!

The finer points of straight pool will DEFINITELY help you advance to some degree, and will definitely make you more competitive with amateur players; but all of the strategy and knowledge in the world will not make up for stroke/ball pocketing defects.

I have been fortunate to play regularly with some world class straight pool players; and to further highlight the differences, let me point out that not only do they run balls like crazy; they only occasionally leave the table on a miss. Most often their innings end by missing shape, then playing safe. Yes, they miss regularly too; but a LOT less often than we do. It is a big hill to climb if you are trying to join the big dogs at the top.

CreeDo said:

that stuff seems to make sense. Do I hit those draw shots soft too so they will take? Or if I know I'll hit a ball full it doesn't matter if I hit soft or hard, the draw will take after hitting?

A commentator in one of the accustats videos (I think ervolino) said you should hit something like 75-85% of your break shots with follow, but I saw thorsten hohmann leave himself pretty much a 45 degree break shot with the cue ball at the center of the table, and he definitely seemed to use draw more than follow, the cueball always found its way to the side rail or center table. So should I ignore that bit about follow and mostly stick to draw to keep out of trouble?

Click to expand...

You definately don't want to hit your breakshots to hard , just a good smooth firm stroke , sometimes even a soft shot will splatter them if you hit the ball in the rack you want full, forget about the rack of balls being there after you determine where your going to hit and what speed you want , just concentrate on the making the ball like a normal shot after you absolutely determine what you want to do. Stay down with the shot and keep your attention on the pocket and object ball like you normally do with any shot. As far as the commentary you mention, there are a lot of shots that you have to use follow , like a ball a little above the rack etc...but I can't agree with him on the % he says.

watch Niels Fiejen run 250+ here , gives you a good idea on how a world class player moves, you will see him determine exactly where he is going to hit every breakshot.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4055665300780803274&q=Niels+Feijen

Bob Jewett said:

Let me expand on this. I used to play in a room that had a table brush but none of the employees used it. If there was a ball polishing machine, it was broken. Each practice session began with brushing down the table, wiping down the rails (which were coated with dust due to the brushing), washing and drying the balls with plain water and paper towels. I felt that I could practice better after doing that. Maybe part of it was working up a sweat from brushing the table. Maybe it was partly a Zen thing.

At the Derby City 14.1 this year, the balls were polished every hour or so (by hand, using Aramith ball polish), and the table was wiped down with a damp towel several times per day. (My apologies to the hotel laundry.)

Click to expand...

Bob
A little side note on clean tables and clean balls. I was talking to a room owner with bar boxes - about 25 in all. He had a guy make sure the tables were level, no dead rails, cleaned the tables and balls --- everyday and recovered the tables with simonis every 3-4 months. Reason other than keep the customers happy, was "if cloth is clean and balls are clean the cloth is faster ---- balls are pocketed faster --- and the quarters drop into the table faster" It was all economics - he made more money even with paying a guy to take care of the tables and recovering them often!

Using hypnosis

3and stop wrote, “I've gone so far as consider hypnotism to help concentrate. If I wasn't such I "non believer" in it, I'd spend the bucks and try. It is truly frustrating when you know you have the talent to play very well, but inconsistencies throw that huge wrench in the works.”

I am a psych and have used hypnosis with myself and others for many years until I retired. I have something for you to consider. Every time you get lost in a TV show or a movie or a good book or a game of pool you are “hypnotized.” By “lost” I mean someone calls your name, like you spouse, and you do not answer. They raise their voice a little and you still don’t answer, finally, they raise their voice another notch and it gets your attention. You say something to the effect, “Sorry, I just wasn’t paying attention.” That is exactly what hypnosis amounts to, an altered state of awareness. Most pool players do not realize that they thoroughly enjoy being hypnotized !

In this state people have had surgery with no anesthesia and ignored the pain that accompanied the surgical procedure. I have had traumatized crime victims recall significant aspects of a crime, such as license plate numbers on a fleeing car in the dead of night and many other “amazing” things.

So what can you do with it as a pool player. There are several things. As you know much of pool playing is under automatic control and you can teach your self to relax, concentrate better (as you suggest you might need) and allow the body to develop better fundamental techniques. Hypnosis will not turn an untalented person into a concert violinist, nor will it help you become a touring pro. It can help you overcome many glitches in your ability and it can be used to refine what you have.

You can get books on self hypnosis or see a licensed psychologist who specializes in the use of hypnosis (not all do) and you need to ask if they have APA certified training, if not look elsewhere. If you do talk with a certified Ph.D. you will need to be fairly specific with regard to what you want to accomplish, such as enhanced concentration at the pool table. The assistance would amount to showing you how to initiate an altered state and then using a graduated list of self suggestions to improve your concentration.

On the other hand, there is good evidence that everything that can be done with hypnosis can be done without hypnosis using “other” techniques for learning. There are techniques that can be used to improve concentration and psychologists who specialize in learning theory can be of assistance. The up side to all of this lies in the idea that with a specific problem identified, the techniques for changing behavior are fairly explicit and easy to learn. One or two consultations and you can do most of it on your own.

Contrary to what some people think, hypnosis is not dangerous. Your spouse could not get you to kill the dog when you are “lost” in a good book because such a suggestion would immediately get your full attention. Now if you wanted to kill the dog …

BTW some of the best subjects for hypnosis are intelligent creative people who do not think that hypnosis will work.

Oh should have added a licensed psych will charge about $150.00 and hour and you might need two hours of his or her time.

JoeW said:

3and stop wrote, “I've gone so far as consider hypnotism to help concentrate. If I wasn't such I "non believer" in it, I'd spend the bucks and try. It is truly frustrating when you know you have the talent to play very well, but inconsistencies throw that huge wrench in the works.”

I am a psych and have used hypnosis with myself and others for many years until I retired. I have something for you to consider. Every time you get lost in a TV show or a movie or a good book or a game of pool you are “hypnotized.” By “lost” I mean someone calls your name, like you spouse, and you do not answer. They raise their voice a little and you still don’t answer, finally, they raise their voice another notch and it gets your attention. You say something to the effect, “Sorry, I just wasn’t paying attention.” That is exactly what hypnosis amounts to, an altered state of awareness. Most pool players do not realize that they thoroughly enjoy being hypnotized !

In this state people have had surgery with no anesthesia and ignored the pain that accompanied the surgical procedure. I have had traumatized crime victims recall significant aspects of a crime, such as license plate numbers on a fleeing car in the dead of night and many other “amazing” things.

So what can you do with it as a pool player. There are several things. As you know much of pool playing is under automatic control and you can teach your self to relax, concentrate better (as you suggest you might need) and allow the body to develop better fundamental techniques. Hypnosis will not turn an untalented person into a concert violinist, nor will it help you become a touring pro. It can help you overcome many glitches in your ability and it can be used to refine what you have.

You can get books on self hypnosis or see a licensed psychologist who specializes in the use of hypnosis (not all do) and you need to ask if they have APA certified training, if not look elsewhere. If you do talk with a certified Ph.D. you will need to be fairly specific with regard to what you want to accomplish, such as enhanced concentration at the pool table. The assistance would amount to showing you how to initiate an altered state and then using a graduated list of self suggestions to improve your concentration.

On the other hand, there is good evidence that everything that can be done with hypnosis can be done without hypnosis using “other” techniques for learning. There are techniques that can be used to improve concentration and psychologists who specialize in learning theory can be of assistance. The up side to all of this lies in the idea that with a specific problem identified, the techniques for changing behavior are fairly explicit and easy to learn. One or two consultations and you can do most of it on your own.

Contrary to what some people think, hypnosis is not dangerous. Your spouse could not get you to kill the dog when you are “lost” in a good book because such a suggestion would immediately get your full attention. Now if you wanted to kill the dog …

BTW some of the best subjects for hypnosis are intelligent creative people who do not think that hypnosis will work.

Click to expand...

So if you practice long enough and hard enough, your body/muscles remember the moves for the "perfect shot", then you can get in the ZONE ("lost" or "hypnotized") and play. Oh, I do realize I thoroughly enjoy being hypnotized - in fact I love it. There is nothing (well almost nothing) better than being in the ZONE playing pool. I think it is the attraction that keeps us coming back.

Jack Maden wrote "There is nothing (well almost nothing) better than being in the ZONE playing pool. I think it is the attraction that keeps us coming back."

Exactly, the "Zone" = hypnosis and you can learn to get in the zone. Unfortunately, most players think it is something that happens to them and not something that they can induce. It is something that can be learned and called upon at will if (and that is a big IF) the person takes the time to learn. It is like learning to ride a bicycle, it takes time and each person uses their own technique. One way to learn it is to think of other things that make you “zone out” such as reading or a good movie. Then you consciously try to use the same type of concentration.

When I am “hypnotizing” someone I have them intensely focus on the sound of my soothing monotonous voice and perhaps stare at a crack on the ceiling to tire their eyes. The conscious mind gets bored and looks for other stimulation which can be provided with visual cues such as imaging sitting by a pond on a nice day with flowers all around and birds singing. The mind begins to drift and focus on all the pretty sights.

But we do not need other people to learn to get into this state we can do it using our own method. Shooting a repetitive shot until it is automatic and the person is getting bored. Then gently (that is the trick) moving to more interesting visually stimulating shots and the mind loses interest in everything but making balls. Practice this many times and the mind will quickly learn to skip the boring part and get to the fun. To stay in the state, don’t think about anything but the beauty of the play and let yourself simply enjoy the movements of your body and the balls on the table.

Of course eventually we miss a shot and have to go and sit down. But one does not have to completely leave the zone if we keep that focused concentration on the table, nice shots we did make and simply wait. If it is a “long” wait then you drop out of the zone and have to “work” to get back into it.

The interesting thing here is that I have taught many people when several sessions were needed to allow themselves to “instantly” drop into an altered state of consciousness. All that is needed is a trigger. I tell them, when they are in an altered state, that if I raise my hand with the palm towards them, when they are awake, that they will immediately drop to an altered state. It works just about every time if the person is willing.

An individual who has learned “self hypnosis” or how to “zone out” can use the same technique. That is, when I make the first shot and it goes into the pocket I will immediately zone out. Of course it must be practiced and it is easier for some people than for others. It seems that people who perceive a need these techniques find them easier to learn.

I am hijacking this thread so I’ll stop here. My apologies to all who were not interested.

Bob Jewett said:

Let me expand on this.

Click to expand...

Just to expand on your expansion... As some of you might remember, I bought a ball polishing machine a month or two ago. My routine now is to throw the balls in the polisher, wipe down the table and rails with a damp cloth, and burnish the cue shaft with a leather pad. My game has improved A LOT since doing this. One of the things I notice is that when two balls collide gently, they actually move away from each other. In the past, the dirt on the balls/cloth would cause the balls to contact, and then just kind of rock in place. A 1/4" separation between two balls, instead of having them frozen, makes a big difference.

dwhite

Here's what I use as a rule of thumb on a standard type break shot with the break ball along side the rack and the cue ball up stream a little. If the cue ball is closer to the long rail than the object ball I use follow. If the OB is closer to the rail I use a little draw to avoid following the cue into the corner pocket. I may adjust this if for example the OB is closer to the rail but its low and I'm going to contact the bottom of the rack with the CB. Then I follow anyway.

I'd like to hear view on this. I say as little english as possible but sometimes outside can help roll the cb off the rack and sometimes (depending on the angle the CB goes into the rack it can eat too far in. Conversly, there are times when some inside helps "pop" the cue ball off the rack. Overall I think less is better and making the shot is higher percentage for me without lots of sidespin.

3andstop said:

Here's what I use as a rule of thumb on a standard type break shot with the break ball along side the rack and the cue ball up stream a little. If the cue ball is closer to the long rail than the object ball I use follow. If the OB is closer to the rail I use a little draw to avoid following the cue into the corner pocket. I may adjust this if for example the OB is closer to the rail but its low and I'm going to contact the bottom of the rack with the CB. Then I follow anyway.

I'd like to hear view on this. I say as little english as possible but sometimes outside can help roll the cb off the rack and sometimes (depending on the angle the CB goes into the rack it can eat too far in. Conversly, there are times when some inside helps "pop" the cue ball off the rack. Overall I think less is better and making the shot is higher percentage for me without lots of sidespin.

Click to expand...

I use the exact same technique , but I do like to use a tip off outside on all my draw shots , to roll off the rack like you mentioned, it works for me but may not for others , my local hall where I play uses slow equipment , slow mali cloth and old old balls that seem to always be dirty and the next hall is 30 miles away so I tend to go there due to time constraints, I am looking for 1 or 2 shots off a break shot.