★ Skinny Shaft vs. ★ Fat Shaft

[JoeyA]

This is one thing I wanted to address for a LONG time and haven't.
It's just a point about perspective in tip placement.

For example: If you regularly place your cue tip in the middle of the left quadrant of the cue ball, YOU WILL GET MORE SPIN WITH A SMALLER TIP (because the edge of the tip that contacts the cue ball will be further away from the vertical axis of the cue ball, as compared to a larger tip diameter. Or at least I think that's the way it works for me.

And of course you are correct about a smaller tip producing less squirt and perhaps that is why it is easier for me to make cut shots with a thinner shaft than with a fatter shaft. (Even small amounts of unintentional side spin can create squirt and reduce accuracy of contact with object ball.)

That then makes me wonder why I and others find it easier to pocket balls that are straight in or almost straight in with a fatter shaft. If I am getting more squirt with a fatter shaft (unintentional or not) why should I be able to make straight in shots easier with a fatter shaft?

JoeyA

A smaller tip does not:
- produce more or less spin (hitting the same CB spot)
- allow a more off center hit
- require more accuracy ("forgive" less)
- etc.

It only:
- makes it easier to see exactly where your tip hits the CB
- creates less squirt

pj
chgo

 

[philly]

This is one thing I wanted to address for a LONG time and haven't.
It's just a point about perspective in tip placement.

For example: If you regularly place your cue tip in the middle of the left quadrant of the cue ball, YOU WILL GET MORE SPIN WITH A SMALLER TIP (because the edge of the tip that contacts the cue ball will be further away from the vertical axis of the cue ball, as compared to a larger tip diameter. Or at least I think that's the way it works for me.

And of course you are correct about a smaller tip producing less squirt and perhaps that is why it is easier for me to make cut shots with a thinner shaft than with a fatter shaft. (Even small amounts of unintentional side spin can create squirt and reduce accuracy of contact with object ball.)

That then makes me wonder why I and others find it easier to pocket balls that are straight in or almost straight in with a fatter shaft. If I am getting more squirt with a fatter shaft (unintentional or not) why should I be able to make straight in shots easier with a fatter shaft?

JoeyA

Joey, maybe I am missing something and I'm sure you will all point it out. I don't understand what shaft thickness has to do with anything when it comes to potting balls, thin slice or not. If you hit the point on the object ball that is furthest away from the pocket it will go in. Squirt/ swerve may exist and the more you worry about it and think about it the more it will exist in your mind. If I told you not to think about pink elephants you would think about pink elephants. The thickness of the shaft is a matter of personal comfort and that's it. The rest is perception. Once again just my 2 cents.

 

[ps611846]

11,5 - 12.00mm, conical taper, solid maple, le pro or triangle tip. Cue weight 18oz.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...If you regularly place your cue tip in the middle of the left quadrant of the cue ball, YOU WILL GET MORE SPIN WITH A SMALLER TIP (because the edge of the tip that contacts the cue ball will be further away from the vertical axis of the cue

In other words, you're getting more spin because you're hitting the CB in a different place (which you could just as easily do with a fatter shaft). If you gauged the hit by where you're actually hitting the CB rather than where your stick's centerline is, there would be no difference.

pj
chgo

 

[ps611846]

In other words, you're getting more spin because you're hitting the CB in a different place (which you could just as easily do with a fatter shaft). If you gauged the hit by where you're actually hitting the CB rather than where your stick's centerline is, there would be no difference.

pj
chgo

I thought that when you hit with an object which has a smaller surface the pressure becomes larger. So this makes no difference in spin?

 

[HawaiianEye]

That then makes me wonder why I and others find it easier to pocket balls that are straight in or almost straight in with a fatter shaft. If I am getting more squirt with a fatter shaft (unintentional or not) why should I be able to make straight in shots easier with a fatter shaft?

JoeyA

If you are shooting a straight in shot without putting spin on the cue ball, then the fatter shaft has no more deflection, or swerve, than the thinner shaft.

I also think it is "easier", for me, to hit dead center on the cue ball with the thicker shaft.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I thought that when you hit with an object which has a smaller surface the pressure becomes larger. So this makes no difference in spin?

Just because the tip is larger, doesn't necessarily mean MORE of the tip is hitting the cue ball when you strike it.

MORE of a smaller tip may hit the cue ball, since the tip is smaller, but about the same size "contact portion" of a larger tip is about equal to the same size of the smaller tip hitting the ball.

Lots of people think that the "center" of the tip is hitting the cue ball on every shot. That is not the case when you are applying English (especially if you are hitting way out of center). The edges of your tip are applying the English...not the center of the tip, because it may not touch the cue ball on many shots.

 

[ps611846]

Just because the tip is larger, doesn't necessarily mean MORE of the tip is hitting the cue ball when you strike it.

MORE of a smaller tip may hit the cue ball, since the tip is smaller, but about the same size "contact portion" of a larger tip is about equal to the same size of the smaller tip hitting the ball.

Lots of people think that the "center" of the tip is hitting the cue ball on every shot. That is not the case when you are applying English (especially if you are hitting way out of center). The edges of your tip are applying the English...not the center of the tip, because it may not touch the cue ball on many shots.

I think you are wrong. Thinking like that could mean that you can spin the ball with a 20mm tip or bigger. But you know you couldn't do that.

Carom players "move" larger and heavier balls playing games which are based on sidespin. The biggest tip diameter you will see is 12.00mm for 3 cushion where you often need to hit hard, so you need more shaft power and stiffness.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I thought that when you hit with an object which has a smaller surface the pressure becomes larger. So this makes no difference in spin?

You're not hitting the cue ball with the entire tip's surface, just a small spot on it - and it's the same size spot for all tips (of similar hardness), just located in slightly different places on the tip's surface.

Nope, no difference in spin.

pj
chgo

P.S. If you did hit the CB with a smaller contact spot it wouldn't matter anyway - the same force spread over a larger or smaller contact spot works the same.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I think you are wrong. Thinking like that could mean that you can spin the ball with a 20mm tip or bigger. But you know you couldn't do that.

Carom players "move" larger and heavier balls playing games which are based on sidespin. The biggest tip diameter you will see is 12.00mm for 3 cushion where you often need to hit hard, so you need more shaft power and stiffness.

How heavy is a masse cue and what is the diameter of their tips. They are usually quite heavy and I've seen their tips as big as 15mm, or more. The trick shot guys are playing on regular pool tables with regular pool balls (unless they are doing some sort of gimmick).

I have had NUMEROUS people ask me how I can put SO MUCH English on the cue ball with a "TREE". Maybe I have a stroke that is different than a lot of people. I had one guy name me "Monster Stroke" because he couldn't believe I could draw the cue ball so well with my "tree".

It is all "preference" as far as I'm concerned. Use what works for you and what you feel comfortable with.

 

[ps611846]

You're not hitting the cue ball with the entire tip's surface, just a small spot on it - and it's the same size spot for all tips (of similar hardness), just located in slightly different places on the tip's surface.

Nope, no difference in spin.

pj
chgo

I agree that you apply any kind of spin with only a part of the tip. So, pls explain why carom players use tips up to 12.00mm ? And 12.00 is used for 3 cushion. In other games is usually 11.00mm. They have to apply sidespin on every single shot and the balls are bigger and heavier.

 

[nick serdula]

You have asked the wrong question.

The real question is do you play center ball?
Yes. Fat shaft.
No. Smaller shaft.
Now there is a question.
Nick

 

[HawaiianEye]

The real question is do you play center ball?
Yes. Fat shaft.
No. Smaller shaft.
Now there is a question.
Nick

I was going to mention something similar earlier.

The style of play sometimes makes a difference on your preference for a particular shaft.

Most of the Chinese and Taiwanese players use regular shafts with 13mm tips. Some of them may thin them down a bit, but they tend to use fatter shafts than players from other countries.

If you notice their style of play, it is what I would call more "natural" to the game. They play close to center and use their position angles to get around the table. They only use spin when they need to change the direction of the ball.

Lots of other players will play slightly "different" angles than them and they use spin to get around the table.

I prefer the "less spin" approach...especially when it comes to playing for money.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Shaf

★ We're talking about 12.25mm and under for skinny shaft.
★★ And 12.75 and up for Fat Shaft.

It is becoming more and more clear to me that it is easier to cut balls and spin your cue ball with skinnier shafts than it is with fatter shafts. (not saying that you can apply more spin with either)

Also, it seems to be easier to shoot follow shots with fatter shafts (typical angle follow shots - not extreme cut shots).

Any thoughts or comments of why or why not?

JoeyA

12.25mm is about as small as I want to go.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I agree that you apply any kind of spin with only a part of the tip. So, pls explain why carom players use tips up to 12.00mm ? And 12.00 is used for 3 cushion. In other games is usually 11.00mm. They have to apply sidespin on every single shot and the balls are bigger and heavier.

I assume it's so they can see more clearly exactly where they're hitting the CB (since precise spin is so important in caroms).

pj
chgo

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Tip size

I was going to mention something similar earlier.

The style of play sometimes makes a difference on your preference for a particular shaft.

Most of the Chinese and Taiwanese players use regular shafts with 13mm tips. Some of them may thin them down a bit, but they tend to use fatter shafts than players from other countries.

If you notice their style of play, it is what I would call more "natural" to the game. They play close to center and use their position angles to get around the table. They only use spin when they need to change the direction of the ball.

Lots of other players will play slightly "different" angles than them and they use spin to get around the table.

I prefer the "less spin" approach...especially when it comes to playing for money.

I heard that Earl Strickland uses a small shaft 9,10 and 11 mm tips ?
I do not know this as a fact !

 

[JoeyA]

philly,
This isn't only my thoughts but the thoughts of one of the best pool players on the planet.

Maybe one of my other posts might have some clues to why I feel skinny shafts cut balls better and fat shafts shoot straight in shots better.

JoeyA

Joey, maybe I am missing something and I'm sure you will all point it out. I don't understand what shaft thickness has to do with anything when it comes to potting balls, thin slice or not. If you hit the point on the object ball that is furthest away from the pocket it will go in. Squirt/ swerve may exist and the more you worry about it and think about it the more it will exist in your mind. If I told you not to think about pink elephants you would think about pink elephants. The thickness of the shaft is a matter of personal comfort and that's it. The rest is perception. Once again just my 2 cents.

 

[JoeyA]

I mentioned the tip location as quarter ball for the purpose of explaining why some people think they get more spin on the cue ball with LD shafts, which normally tend to be on the thin side.

You might be surprised to know that MOST people who play pool think that the centerline is their gauge for how much English they are putting on the cue ball.

JoeyA

In other words, you're getting more spin because you're hitting the CB in a different place (which you could just as easily do with a fatter shaft). If you gauged the hit by where you're actually hitting the CB rather than where your stick's centerline is, there would be no difference.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

I heard that Earl Strickland uses a small shaft 9,10 and 11 mm tips ?
I do not know this as a fact !

I have a duplicate of a shaft that Mike GUlyassy made for Earl Strickland down to the taper which had almost a 20" straight taper. It was a tiny bit less than 13mm but not much smaller than that. The shaft taper made the cue ball dance like an angry bull.

JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

I think you're right. I know you're right about the Taiwanese players using larger than 12MM shafts because I played with Kevin Cheng's cue and it was close to my cue shaft's diameter.

I probably like my 12MM LD shaft because I play more one pocket and like one other poster said. It's good for smaller table surfaces. I'm not sure if he said why. Have to go read that again. :smile:

Less spin is, as you said, better but especially when you have tougher shots (longer shots).

JoeyA

I was going to mention something similar earlier.

The style of play sometimes makes a difference on your preference for a particular shaft.

Most of the Chinese and Taiwanese players use regular shafts with 13mm tips. Some of them may thin them down a bit, but they tend to use fatter shafts than players from other countries.

If you notice their style of play, it is what I would call more "natural" to the game. They play close to center and use their position angles to get around the table. They only use spin when they need to change the direction of the ball.

Lots of other players will play slightly "different" angles than them and they use spin to get around the table.

I prefer the "less spin" approach...especially when it comes to playing for money.