100 Ball Runners - FargoRate
- Thread starter Samiel
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I have a FargoRate of 621 with a robustness of 102, but I haven't played nine ball in a long, long time.
There's an old thread on here I'm having trouble finding at the moment - I'll edit this with a link if I can find it. Mike Page stated that at least a 650 would probably be needed to hit 100. I think it's more nuanced than that to be honest.
I don't know what my Fargo is, and probably won't ever. I just don't get out enough to play in 9 Ball tournaments, let alone those that report to Fargo. My guess is I'm around 650-675. This is an absolute guess. My high run is 101. Been in the 70s many times, 80s and 90s a few times. I do not play a lot of rotation games anymore.
The reason I say it's nuanced is straight pool has a much, much steeper learning curve than I had really anticipated. About a year ago, after getting a home table, I set a goal of running 100. Prior to that, I really only played 9 or 10 ball the few times a month I'd go to the pool hall. In about a 9 month span, I got up to 74. Bunch of 40s, 50s, and 60s, and one 74. Then I took a break (summer time means I focus on other things - golf, running, cycling, etc.).
In that time frame, it became immediately apparently that 14.1 and 9/10 ball are two completely different games. The emphasis on execution and angle management in 9/10 ball just isn't enough to produce high runs in 14.1 consistently. The speed control in 9/10 ball is helpful, but speed control is much more refined in 14.1. I found that there's a lot of conventional wisdom about 14.1 that is true like 51% of the time. The classic side pocket key ball? If there isn't a solid pattern to get near perfect on that key ball, I'll look for something that's better. You get bad on that ball, there's a good chance the run is over, and the margin of error on that ball can be pretty small. I learned that you need to get comfortable shooting off angle into side pockets and shooting balls up table to open up patterns. The idea that you are shooting easy shots a lot more is true in a small sense - you've got to make difficult shots in 14.1 too, but the margin of error in position on both easy and difficult shots is way smaller - cinching balls will end a run eventually in 14.1. IMO, Recovering in 14.1 is more difficult than in 9/10 ball, which seems counter intuitive because you have more options in 14.1. Running into a ball accidentally will more often than not tie something up, or block something, and it will kill a run. Intentionally opening a cluster up is also tough - you need an insurance ball, plus you need to not tie something else up or block another ball after the cluster. You need to learn to manufacture break balls, but learn to manufacture key balls too. Learn when to give up a tough pattern for a side of the rack breakshot for an easier pattern to an under the rack breakshot. The list goes on and on.
Then there's patterns, which is its own topic. My patterns have gotten much better, but there's still room for a lot, and I mean a lot, of improvement. And then there's breakshots, which is also its own topic.
So I guess, why do your runs end? Are you making balls consistently but scrambling at the end and not getting on the break ball, or missing a tough shot at the end of the rack? Are you getting stuck mid-rack? Are you missing break shots?
I write all this because I'm not sure Fargo really captures all of the many puzzles pieces that goes into 14.1 play. Sure, a guy that's 700+ probably has the tool set to hit 100 or more eventually. But there's a lot to 14.1 that a ~600 level player can probably work on to get them north of 60 by really working on the game.
And then there's luck. You don't always get a shot after the break, even if the balls are all open with no clusters. Sometimes the balls open funny. Sometimes you get kicked way up table, or into a pocket after the break. Sometimes you do get lucky and bump a ball into a break shot, or into a key ball.
My worthless $0.02: straight pool is like another language. Total immersion is probably the best way to learn to speak it. You can probably make some gains that your Fargo Rate might not indicate are possible.
I don't know what my Fargo is, and probably won't ever. I just don't get out enough to play in 9 Ball tournaments, let alone those that report to Fargo. My guess is I'm around 650-675. This is an absolute guess. My high run is 101. Been in the 70s many times, 80s and 90s a few times. I do not play a lot of rotation games anymore.
The reason I say it's nuanced is straight pool has a much, much steeper learning curve than I had really anticipated. About a year ago, after getting a home table, I set a goal of running 100. Prior to that, I really only played 9 or 10 ball the few times a month I'd go to the pool hall. In about a 9 month span, I got up to 74. Bunch of 40s, 50s, and 60s, and one 74. Then I took a break (summer time means I focus on other things - golf, running, cycling, etc.).
In that time frame, it became immediately apparently that 14.1 and 9/10 ball are two completely different games. The emphasis on execution and angle management in 9/10 ball just isn't enough to produce high runs in 14.1 consistently. The speed control in 9/10 ball is helpful, but speed control is much more refined in 14.1. I found that there's a lot of conventional wisdom about 14.1 that is true like 51% of the time. The classic side pocket key ball? If there isn't a solid pattern to get near perfect on that key ball, I'll look for something that's better. You get bad on that ball, there's a good chance the run is over, and the margin of error on that ball can be pretty small. I learned that you need to get comfortable shooting off angle into side pockets and shooting balls up table to open up patterns. The idea that you are shooting easy shots a lot more is true in a small sense - you've got to make difficult shots in 14.1 too, but the margin of error in position on both easy and difficult shots is way smaller - cinching balls will end a run eventually in 14.1. IMO, Recovering in 14.1 is more difficult than in 9/10 ball, which seems counter intuitive because you have more options in 14.1. Running into a ball accidentally will more often than not tie something up, or block something, and it will kill a run. Intentionally opening a cluster up is also tough - you need an insurance ball, plus you need to not tie something else up or block another ball after the cluster. You need to learn to manufacture break balls, but learn to manufacture key balls too. Learn when to give up a tough pattern for a side of the rack breakshot for an easier pattern to an under the rack breakshot. The list goes on and on.
Then there's patterns, which is its own topic. My patterns have gotten much better, but there's still room for a lot, and I mean a lot, of improvement. And then there's breakshots, which is also its own topic.
So I guess, why do your runs end? Are you making balls consistently but scrambling at the end and not getting on the break ball, or missing a tough shot at the end of the rack? Are you getting stuck mid-rack? Are you missing break shots?
I write all this because I'm not sure Fargo really captures all of the many puzzles pieces that goes into 14.1 play. Sure, a guy that's 700+ probably has the tool set to hit 100 or more eventually. But there's a lot to 14.1 that a ~600 level player can probably work on to get them north of 60 by really working on the game.
And then there's luck. You don't always get a shot after the break, even if the balls are all open with no clusters. Sometimes the balls open funny. Sometimes you get kicked way up table, or into a pocket after the break. Sometimes you do get lucky and bump a ball into a break shot, or into a key ball.
My worthless $0.02: straight pool is like another language. Total immersion is probably the best way to learn to speak it. You can probably make some gains that your Fargo Rate might not indicate are possible.
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I've managed to exceed 100 a couple times this year, and few in the 80's. I haven't made a real effort to play 14.1 in the last while. Too busy with life unfortunately.
My fargo is currently at 677, but I only have a single tournament results in the system that provides me a 67 robustness. That said, based on the players I compete against and their legit fargos. I'd say ~680 is pretty accurate
My fargo is currently at 677, but I only have a single tournament results in the system that provides me a 67 robustness. That said, based on the players I compete against and their legit fargos. I'd say ~680 is pretty accurate
Speaking for myself, my early success in 14.1 was merely born of potting ability and CB control. Both of which are more closely related to fargo rate in terms of my ability to win/lose games.
Potting and I'd even dare to say CB control (>2ft) take a back seat in 14.1 to mini pattern IQ/play. Fargo really doesn't care, or better said have a metric for scoring your ability to find and manlipulate these mini patterns.
I think the closest correlation between a 100 shooter and fargo rate would be consistency. You're not reaching 100 in 14.1 without a solid foundation, and a strong consistency to whatever ability you have. Much like your not reaching >650 in fargo regardless of your potting ability if you can't string together wins.
I know a few guys near me that have run 100+ and I feel I'm the favorite in 9-ball against at least one of them. My guess is that at least one other has a FargoRate around 640 (he doesn't have many tournament results) and another has his listed at 635 with 1000+ robustness. Going back and watching some of the big runs by the pros, I feel quite often they had to make a few "missable shots" (at least by me) to continue the run. Their patterns are definitely better, but they definitely had some steeper cuts and such, that I feel I would possibly miss. For me, pattern play is definitely the one thing I feel I need to work on. Probably fundamentals as well. I was just curious if there were many sub 600 FargoRate players that had a high run of 100+.
Agreed 100% - guess I could've turned a novel into two sentences lol.
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If you watch some of the Make It Happen videos that Accu Stats has uploaded to YouTube from the mid-2010s, I think you'll see that someone possessed of extraordinary fundamental talent (shotmaking, speed control) can brute force their way into running a 100 balls without needing to play top notch patterns.
The more classic patterns of Rempe, Sigel, Mizerak, West, etc. that are available in Accu Stats' catalog are good study, even if it doesn't feature a 100 ball run. Jim Rempe's 14.1 instructional DVD's are really good investments, IMO.
I may play 9 or 10 ball at around a 600 speed FWIW. I really don't know what my Fargo is.
I have run a little over a 100 a couple times.
I have no Fargo rate but people who understand the rating system have said I would be around a 620.
I have no Fargo rate but people who understand the rating system have said I would be around a 620.
My FR is a 633 and my HR on a 9' Diamond is 46, with another 4 or 5 runs between 40-45. When I first came to Denver, I played in a straight pool league for a couple sessions and that was really the only time I played straight pool on the big table, outside of here or there snagging a big table and playing for an hour or two. Since then, I rarely play on a big table and don't get out much.
On my 7' diamond at home, I've run 100 on the nose as my HR and have about 10 runs between 60-68. It's funny that on both the little and big table, how you can get stuck in between a small range for a bunch of runs. I know there's already another thread on how tough or easy it is to run balls on different size tables, so I didn't mention my runs on different tables to say that, just to put things in perspective. My thoughts on my HR on the big table are, if I had access to a big table the last 6-7 years maybe once a week and played straight pool lets say 50% of the time and rotation the other 50%, that on a 9' Diamond with 4 1/2" pockets and relatively new cloth, I probably would have a HR around 60-70 balls and maybe a little higher if things broke right. On a 9' gold crown with ideal conditions, I would like to think I could get 70-100 if tried for a couple hours a few days a week for 6 months. I know it's all woulda coulda shoulda and I'll never know unless I try, but I would actually like to try this someday if it worked out. At the moment with a 2 year old and another on the way, I don't see this happening anytime soon. Even on the bar table, getting my 100 took so many things to happen. Around 50 balls I kicked one in out of the stack when I was frozen to the side of it. I made several banks and a million combos or caroms. People always talk about how clean a run is, well, this may have been the must "unclean" 100 ball run ever lol. It's such a tight space on the bar table that you can scratch very easily or just not come up with a shot after the break. My issues on the big table were not quite having solid enough fundamentals to just run that many balls without missing on occasion. I think my pattern play could use some work amongst probably all things regarding the typical straight pool learning curve. Concentrating for such a long period of time on a 100 ball run is a skill in it's self too. I tend to slow down after 30-40 balls and that's not conducive to running a lot either. I think it's important to keep a quicker (not reckless) pace for as long as possible and I don't do a good job of this most of the time. It seems as son as you slow down, it's too easy for the brain to get in the way and it just feels like a grind until I miss.
On my 7' diamond at home, I've run 100 on the nose as my HR and have about 10 runs between 60-68. It's funny that on both the little and big table, how you can get stuck in between a small range for a bunch of runs. I know there's already another thread on how tough or easy it is to run balls on different size tables, so I didn't mention my runs on different tables to say that, just to put things in perspective. My thoughts on my HR on the big table are, if I had access to a big table the last 6-7 years maybe once a week and played straight pool lets say 50% of the time and rotation the other 50%, that on a 9' Diamond with 4 1/2" pockets and relatively new cloth, I probably would have a HR around 60-70 balls and maybe a little higher if things broke right. On a 9' gold crown with ideal conditions, I would like to think I could get 70-100 if tried for a couple hours a few days a week for 6 months. I know it's all woulda coulda shoulda and I'll never know unless I try, but I would actually like to try this someday if it worked out. At the moment with a 2 year old and another on the way, I don't see this happening anytime soon. Even on the bar table, getting my 100 took so many things to happen. Around 50 balls I kicked one in out of the stack when I was frozen to the side of it. I made several banks and a million combos or caroms. People always talk about how clean a run is, well, this may have been the must "unclean" 100 ball run ever lol. It's such a tight space on the bar table that you can scratch very easily or just not come up with a shot after the break. My issues on the big table were not quite having solid enough fundamentals to just run that many balls without missing on occasion. I think my pattern play could use some work amongst probably all things regarding the typical straight pool learning curve. Concentrating for such a long period of time on a 100 ball run is a skill in it's self too. I tend to slow down after 30-40 balls and that's not conducive to running a lot either. I think it's important to keep a quicker (not reckless) pace for as long as possible and I don't do a good job of this most of the time. It seems as son as you slow down, it's too easy for the brain to get in the way and it just feels like a grind until I miss.
As others have said, you certainly have to have the game-specific skill. If you haven't developed ball pattern and rack-opening skills commensurate with your rating as well how and when to take out small insurance policies, you probably won't realize your high run potential.
I've been rated 610-620 for quite some time. I had a regular sparring partner a couple years ago. We were close in speed, and most weeks after the Monday tournament we'd play our standard 14.1 game to 100: $70 for the win and $30 for the high run. So we could be up or down $40 or $100. I don't think I ever remember either of us being out of the 30s, and there were no shortage of 18s or 22s. I've done seasons of 14.1 league (maybe a dozen games) with a season high run in the 30s.
I've also done a LOT (a while ago now) of "Open break and run balls" practice. One early morning I went downstairs and was kinda sleepy. I did the first break, took ball in hand behind the line and started running balls. I got through 5 racks and missed the shot to open up rack 6. So 70 is my lifetime high run. The funny thing is while I got THROUGH rack 5 (the 14 balls I mean), this is actually the only time I've ever been IN rack 5. So I've been in the 50s a couple other times and in the 40s I don't know how many times, 15 or 20?
The key is this is with LOTS of attempts. I could easily have a lifetime high run of 39 like JC if I didn't use it as a practice drill and get so many shots at it.
I've been rated 610-620 for quite some time. I had a regular sparring partner a couple years ago. We were close in speed, and most weeks after the Monday tournament we'd play our standard 14.1 game to 100: $70 for the win and $30 for the high run. So we could be up or down $40 or $100. I don't think I ever remember either of us being out of the 30s, and there were no shortage of 18s or 22s. I've done seasons of 14.1 league (maybe a dozen games) with a season high run in the 30s.
I've also done a LOT (a while ago now) of "Open break and run balls" practice. One early morning I went downstairs and was kinda sleepy. I did the first break, took ball in hand behind the line and started running balls. I got through 5 racks and missed the shot to open up rack 6. So 70 is my lifetime high run. The funny thing is while I got THROUGH rack 5 (the 14 balls I mean), this is actually the only time I've ever been IN rack 5. So I've been in the 50s a couple other times and in the 40s I don't know how many times, 15 or 20?
The key is this is with LOTS of attempts. I could easily have a lifetime high run of 39 like JC if I didn't use it as a practice drill and get so many shots at it.
I recently played two games on a bar box against my league operator. I found it much more difficult than an 8' table. First off clusters are much more common. Second, more precise position play seems to be required. Of the two games (going to 100), the best best I did was a HR of 21. I felt I should have been able to do better than that, but clusters seemed to be my limiting factor. I definitely need to work on pattern play as well.