14.1 Championships in New Brunswick, NJ

[NYC cue dude]

It is so much work just to find where those dvds are on sale. I went to Amsterdam and couldnt find any of the dvds for sale.

I also think I Blatt Billiards doesnt have them for sale either. Im not big on shopping on the internet and the places I goto for billiards gear doesnt sell them.

So what dvds is nyc cue dude talking about? I know they exist but where are they for sale.

Im sorry for not seeing the obivous connections but it would help had someone been more explicit.

i'm not sure what all the confusion is all about.

The dvd's are being offered by dragon promotions and a select few distributers. It's not like this is a major blockbuster Disney's release.

I recall Charlie Williams posting a few times in separate threads on the main forum about the release and it's availability.

What "connection" do you think you are missing? I'd be glad to answer any question, but yo will have to be more explicit.

rg

 

[Blackjack]

i'm not sure what all the confusion is all about.

The dvd's are being offered by dragon promotions and a select few distributers. It's not like this is a major blockbuster Disney's release.

I recall Charlie Williams posting a few times in separate threads on the main forum about the release and it's availability.

What "connection" do you think you are missing? I'd be glad to answer any question, but yo will have to be more explicit.

rg

This post is about the dvd project for THIS YEAR.
I just spoke to Charlie Williams on the phone. I asked if they would be making dvd's of the event this year and he said it was not likely. If we could get some interest in the dvd project - I would be more than happy to help out in any way that I can ( I told Charlie that also). It doesn't have to be anything fancy with the filming - I would be more than happy to do the commentary in post production and assist in burning the dvd's. I know of several people that have the ability to burn the dvd's - some post on this fourm. The main issue with Charlie is that there was money spent last year and the sales did not justify the production values. If anybody else is interested in putting this together, I would be more than happy to twist Charlie's arm to make it happen (or to at least get his permission to do it). I have no camera equipment, but I do have editing software capabilities and the motivation to do this. If anyone is intersted, give me a call at 915-496-5763. If I go, I will probably be staying in Kearny and I would need a ride every day (unless someone needs a roomate at the hotel to split their costs).

 

[NYC cue dude]

This post is about the dvd project for THIS YEAR.
I just spoke to Charlie Williams on the phone. I asked if they would be making dvd's of the event this year and he said it was not likely. If we could get some interest in the dvd project - I would be more than happy to help out in any way that I can ( I told Charlie that also). It doesn't have to be anything fancy with the filming - I would be more than happy to do the commentary in post production and assist in burning the dvd's. I know of several people that have the ability to burn the dvd's - some post on this fourm. The main issue with Charlie is that there was money spent last year and the sales did not justify the production values. If anybody else is interested in putting this together, I would be more than happy to twist Charlie's arm to make it happen (or to at least get his permission to do it). I have no camera equipment, but I do have editing software capabilities and the motivation to do this. If anyone is intersted, give me a call at 915-496-5763. If I go, I will probably be staying in Kearny and I would need a ride every day (unless someone needs a roomate at the hotel to split their costs).

The biggest problem with filming was the costs. We agreed on a price with a film team who was also going to edit and produce the dvd's Around every corner we encountered knew "difficulty's" the kept the increasing the final costs. In the end, the amount of money spent creating the dvd's almost sank the entire tournament.

Very nice offer David. The concern we have is that the end product has to be atleast somewhat professional. I wouldn't be comfortable with someone taping this on a simple camera and then burning copies from the masters. Afterall, my name (and dragon promotions) is on the end product.

Of course, in the end, I'd listen to any suggestions.

rg

 

[dmgwalsh]

dvds

I'm sorry to hear the dvds didn't sell enough to support another go around.

Watching good 14.1 on video is so enjoyable.

Is it out of the question to have Accustats do it?

Is anybody making money in video these days?

By the way, someone announced a qualifier in Maryland. Any word on the other Qualifiers?(I emailed Dragon twice about it already)

 

[Blackjack]

Dennis

When I spoke to Charlie I asked him if he was planning on having Accu-stats tape this event and he said that it was not in the plans. Randy's post is in line with what Charlie said to me on Saturday.

Randy
We would need 3 cameras - and I am experienced in editing/post production. John's video in his garage has sold many copies - and in John's own words he was "just a guy in a garage with a video camera."

The fans want to see the matches and they also want good commentary to go along with the matches. Many years ago professional wrestling had the largest bootleg tape market in the world. These were tapes that were hard to get from what were known as outlaw shows. These tapes were not well produced at all - mostly guys shooting it with a video camera under their arm. The point I am making is that those bootleg tapes made more money than some of Vince McMahon's well produced TV shows. It showed that the fans just wanted to see good action without all of the fluff that comes attached with high production costs.

I would be more than comfortable in saying that you can have it professionally taped for less than you think. I am willing to help out with the directing and commentary - free of charge. I am slo confident that we can get some volunteer camera people as well - probably from this forum. Where there is a will there is a way. As I said to Charlie, there is more of a market for this than your last year's sales indicate. Many people (including myself) did not know where to buy the dvd's from last year's event. I believe that you can get many copies of this years event pre-ordered via the internet forums and make up production costs before the first match is recorded. Let me know.

 

[dmgwalsh]

vids

Dennis

When I spoke to Charlie I asked him if he was planning on having Accu-stats tape this event and he said that it was not in the plans. Randy's post is in line with what Charlie said to me on Saturday.

Randy
We would need 3 cameras - and I am experienced in editing/post production. John's video in his garage has sold many copies - and in John's own words he was "just a guy in a garage with a video camera."

The fans want to see the matches and they also want good commentary to go along with the matches. Many years ago professional wrestling had the largest bootleg tape market in the world. These were tapes that were hard to get from what were known as outlaw shows. These tapes were not well produced at all - mostly guys shooting it with a video camera under their arm. The point I am making is that those bootleg tapes made more money than some of Vince McMahon's well produced TV shows. It showed that the fans just wanted to see good action without all of the fluff that comes attached with high production costs.

I would be more than comfortable in saying that you can have it professionally taped for less than you think. I am willing to help out with the directing and commentary - free of charge. I am slo confident that we can get some volunteer camera people as well - probably from this forum. Where there is a will there is a way. As I said to Charlie, there is more of a market for this than your last year's sales indicate. Many people (including myself) did not know where to buy the dvd's from last year's event. I believe that you can get many copies of this years event pre-ordered via the internet forums and make up production costs before the first match is recorded. Let me know.

Blackjack: that would be great if you could put this together.

In case you guys didn't know, there are a few bootleg tapes from the tournament floating around.

I think Michel Felder taped some if not all of them, no commentary, and they became available on the internet. Some are better than others, having to do with where they were able to put a camcorder without interfering with play.

Some of those matches are as follows:

Hohmann/Ouschan; Garcia/Immonen; Hohmann/Deska; Felder/Maidhoff; Felder/Immonen; Davis/Ortmann.

If I am able to make it out there, I would help with some of the filming.

 

[Blackjack]

Blackjack: that would be great if you could put this together.

In case you guys didn't know, there are a few bootleg tapes from the tournament floating around.

I think Michel Felder taped some if not all of them, no commentary, and they became available on the internet. Some are better than others, having to do with where they were able to put a camcorder without interfering with play.

Some of those matches are as follows:

Hohmann/Ouschan; Garcia/Immonen; Hohmann/Deska; Felder/Maidhoff; Felder/Immonen; Davis/Ortmann.

If I am able to make it out there, I would help with some of the filming.

This is coming together nicely...

Director - Me - Cost - Free
Editing - Me - Cost - Lunch, a bag of peanuts, and a Mountain Dew
Camera 1 - Dennis - Cost - free pass for the entire event
Commentary - Williebetmore and Breakup - Cost - Priceless

I think the most important part of the dvd's is the commentary. We have many players in this forum that are extremely gifted in teaching about the game of straight pool. One of them is Lou Figueroa - another is Bob Jewett - another is SJM. Sometimes no commentary at all is better than poor commentary - or you can take care of the problem by planning and strategizing with who you will have add commentary to a certain match.

There is a large market for 14.1 material, Randy - especially in Europe and in Asia. James, Charlie, and Cindy already know that. You can expand your marketbase for the dvd's by adding comentary in Chinese, Japanese, German, and Korean quite easily. I have done that with my books - hired a college student in search of spending money to translate the material. The most I have ever paid for that was $300.

 

[NYC cue dude]

I am away on vacation now until mid april, and won't have the opportunity to post as frequently as I'd like.

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.

The costs associated with filming last years event had more far reaching effects than just monetary. It's not true that we were disappointed with last years dvd sales, because they only went on sale a month or 2 ago. We suffered with almost 10 month delays. They have only been on the market for a very short time. Part of the problem is that they wont be selling long enough to really determine if itwasworth itor not before deciding whether the economics make sense.

As far as michael felder is concerend, I am really upset that he filmed this event (or parts of it) and goes against what players and spectators were told. This is the first I am hearing of this. I will excersise restraint in announcing what i think the consequences should be.......


rg

 

[selftaut]

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.




rg

With the previous comment you made about not having it filmed again in the next event , and along with this comment above , I am dissapointed that you seem to not want Blackjack and others to step up and do what they are suggesting, if they did I would be the first in line to buy the DVD's. I think they would do a tremendous job with what resources they have.

 

[Blackjack]

I am away on vacation now until mid april, and won't have the opportunity to post as frequently as I'd like.

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.

The costs associated with filming last years event had more far reaching effects than just monetary. It's not true that we were disappointed with last years dvd sales, because they only went on sale a month or 2 ago. We suffered with almost 10 month delays. They have only been on the market for a very short time. Part of the problem is that they wont be selling long enough to really determine if itwasworth itor not before deciding whether the economics make sense.

As far as michael felder is concerend, I am really upset that he filmed this event (or parts of it) and goes against what players and spectators were told. This is the first I am hearing of this. I will excersise restraint in announcing what i think the consequences should be.......


rg

Randy,
Okay, I understand that there is no data on whether the dvd's sold or not because there was a delay with them hitting the marketplace - and the time between they were released and 'right now" does not factor into what DP and Randy Goldwater should do in 2007. The 2006 dvd's have only been out for 2 months, and there is not enough time to evaluate their success between now and July. You're a better businessman than I, you know that you cannot make a decision for this year based upon what happened last year. There were some snags, it is understandable. However, think about this: why not do it right this year?

Right now you are hearing and reading that there is a market for this product. You are also having people step up to the plate to ensure that costs are kept reasonable - I have offered to edit the video and sound and produce the dvd's for you. I can assure you that finished product will be professional or I would not offer my services to you or to Charlie at all. Everything will be done to your standards. You will have full distribution rights to the finished product. All I asked for in return was a bag of peanuts and a Mountain Dew.

IMO, if you do the DVD's right this year, Michael and others won't have to resort to marketing or distributing bootleg recordings, but you're giving Michael and others no choice but to resort to that, so why chastise him for doing so? With a demand for the product and your attitude towards making dvd's available for those unable to attend the event, the status of the 2006 14.1 World Championships dvd's is completely understandable. My offer still stands, let me know. If the answer is "no" I guess I will have to start my own tournament and do the dvd's that way?

 

[StraightPoolIU]

If this event ends up not being recorded for posterity as well as the entertainment of current 14.1 fans it will truely be a travesty. Great 14.1 tournaments are held so seldomly that we who are fans of the game relish every opprotunity to see professionals play the game at its highest level. Personally I would love to go to the tournament and see it in person, but I am not financially able to do so nor can I get time off from work. But can I drop 25-30 bucks on a dvd? You bet. Also, I think it's important from a historical perspective. We have almost no visual proof of the golden age of pool, but it is equally as sad how little pool is a available on visual media in this day and age as well. Personally, I think Accu-Stat does a fantastic job and would be perfect for this tournament, but there must be things at work that I do not understand that make that an impossibility. In any case I hope some sort of deal gets worked out with someone.

 

[dmgwalsh]

taping event: to be or not to be

I am away on vacation now until mid april, and won't have the opportunity to post as frequently as I'd like.

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.

The costs associated with filming last years event had more far reaching effects than just monetary. It's not true that we were disappointed with last years dvd sales, because they only went on sale a month or 2 ago. We suffered with almost 10 month delays. They have only been on the market for a very short time. Part of the problem is that they wont be selling long enough to really determine if it wa sworth it or not before deciding whether the economics make sense.

As far as michael felder is concerend, I am really upset that he filmed this event (or parts of it) and goes against what players and spectators were told. This is the first I am hearing of this. I will excersise restraint in announcing what i think the consequences should be.......rg

While I would love to see vids of the game, I certainly do not want to second guess one of the men that has made this great event possible. If for whatever reason he does not want this event filmed, I say we respect his wishes and let the issue die so he can devote some of his energy to promoting the event rather than defending every detail of his business plan to strangers on the internet.

As for Felder, I assumed he had taped because he was in some of the tapes and someone had said that he taped himself in an earlier European event so I just assumed it was him. I should not have assumed and I apologize to him for any problem my assumption might have caused.

 

[NYC cue dude]

While I would love to see vids of the game, I certainly do not want to second guess one of the men that has made this great event possible. If for whatever reason he does not want this event filmed, I say we respect his wishes and let the issue die so he can devote some of his energy to promoting the event rather than defending every detail of his business plan to strangers on the internet.

As for Felder, I assumed he had taped because he was in some of the tapes and someone had said that he taped himself in an earlier European event so I just assumed it was him. I should not have assumed and I apologize to him for any problem my assumption might have caused.

I truly do appreciate the offers by some of you on getting involved, expending time, energy and perhaps money to help film this event. I hope no one misunderstands my gratitude.

When I said that I would "listen" to any proposals, I wasn't exactly clear. If anyone wants to participate, they should create a "detailed" plan and then email me the proposal. Suggesting ideas, one post at a time isn't helpful. Once the personel agree, the equipment is chosen, and the other necessary details are decided, then I will review the results.

One thing that no one realizes is that as much as we would like to think there is a demand for these videos, sadly it isnt the case. I conservatively put the number of interested purchasers in the hundreds, not the thousands. It is a VERY SMALL market.

Few of you know this, but there is no profit in this event for me. Any money that I have given has been a donation, with NO expectation for return. The ONLY business plan I have ever tried to initiate with this event is to have it some time in the near future be SELF SUSTAINING. Creating bigger expenses for this event is counter productive and jeapordizes the potential longevity of this event.

rg

 

[Kevin]

Personally, I think Accu-Stat does a fantastic job and would be perfect for this tournament, but there must be things at work that I do not understand that make that an impossibility.

You may wish to chat directly with Pat Fleming about this, he answers the phone. I recall Grady Mathews mentioning that Pat's costs for covering an event have risen over the years, and must be more selective and turns down some requests for event coverage, or perhaps even asks for money up front to cover himself, a not totally unreasonable request given that it is "promotion" for the event.

It is not hard to guess at some of these costs. Lighting, 3 cameras, 3 camera people, editing director, perhaps a gofer, trailer plus gas to get all his equipment there, hotel rooms for several days, possibly airfare for his commentators, food, salary, probably insurance to cover himself should equipment be lost due to accident or theft, etc. These things could easily run up the bill to , uhm, near $10,000 for a weekend just to pull a number from my hat. Plus the costs of post production, media (tapes or DVD's) mailing catalogs, etc. would mean he may need to expect to sell perhaps at least 500 tapes quickly just to cover his costs, let alone profit which is necessary for his business to survive and keep on paying the mortgage and feeding his family. Randy just mentioned the market, despite our local fanatical interest, is very limited, I count maybe 40 regulars to the straight pool section of AZBilliards, the "best pool website on the planet". Not to mention the prospect of digital piracy of product killing future sales.

The real answer here may be, if Accu-stats has gotten too expensive, is there room for a competitor to get into the action and provide similar coverage and exposure, but at a lower price point? And, are you (Blackjack, others) the entrepreneur that is willing to start and run that business to challenge Pat's monopoly on the pool market?

One way to do it on the cheap would be to take up Randy's challenge, do the event your way, with this promise: we do it on spec, film, edit, etc. then show you the result, and if you don't like it we promise to can the result and it will never ever be released to the public so your "production values" will be upheld. But give us the chance to try first on the cheap. Nobody loses that way, but there is a chance for it to work out.

 

[NYC cue dude]

My understanding is that Accustats wanted to OWN a large percentage of the tournament itself (including the name "World Straight Pool Championships)!!!!! Very unreasonable imo.

Obviously we spoke with them about this last year.

And without letting out too much information, the dvd filming and production last year escalated into the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars. You do the math......

rg

 

[mthornto]

And without letting out too much information, the dvd filming and production last year escalated into the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars. You do the math......

rg

I am ashamed to say that I have not purchased last year's DVDs yet. I have been meaning to, just not gotten to it. I will get this done this week.


Randy, you mentioned that you are not pleased that somebody filmed some matches and posted them on the internet. I can understand your frustration with this since you were trying to have matches professionally filmed and released. However, spectators with video cameras are becoming quite common. For example, cameras were all over the place at Derby City this year.

If the Straight Pool Championships are not professional filmed this year, are you still against allowing spectators to film matches? I am talking about guys sitting in the stands with a camera in their hand, not fans filming with the intent to produce and sell.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

The staff at this event was pretty adamant about not letting spectators do this. For the life of me, I have no idea how they didn't catch someone filming entire matches with a tripod. To be honest, I played Michael Felder twice, and I kind of remember him taping at least one of the matches. I can't be sure about that though.

I will say that Mr. Felder is a super-nice guy and probably didn't know about the rule. It's the only explanation I can think of.

- Steve

 

[TheOne]

The staff at this event was pretty adamant about not letting spectators do this. For the life of me, I have no idea how they didn't catch someone filming entire matches with a tripod. To be honest, I played Michael Felder twice, and I kind of remember him taping at least one of the matches. I can't be sure about that though.

I will say that Mr. Felder is a super-nice guy and probably didn't know about the rule. It's the only explanation I can think of.

- Steve

I don't remember every detail from last year but I do recall wanting to record some matches I played in for my own memories. I felt fortunate to be playing in the event and as one of the lesser names knew I wouldn't get a "TV" game. Sadly the schedule was so tough I didn't get chance to record anything but I don't recall thinking I wasn't allowed but I could be wrong?

I feel even more proud to have done enough to be invited back this year and if no filming is to take place it would be a shame if players weren't allowed to film a few matches for their personal use.

That being said I think we all should respect Randy and DP decision because they are already putting this show on for little or zero reward, the last thing we should do is add to their headaches. I'd rather have a world 14.1 event with no filming than nothing at all...

 

[lfigueroa]

This is coming together nicely...

Director - Me - Cost - Free
Editing - Me - Cost - Lunch, a bag of peanuts, and a Mountain Dew
Camera 1 - Dennis - Cost - free pass for the entire event
Commentary - Williebetmore and Breakup - Cost - Priceless

I think the most important part of the dvd's is the commentary. We have many players in this forum that are extremely gifted in teaching about the game of straight pool. One of them is Lou Figueroa - another is Bob Jewett - another is SJM. Sometimes no commentary at all is better than poor commentary - or you can take care of the problem by planning and strategizing with who you will have add commentary to a certain match.

There is a large market for 14.1 material, Randy - especially in Europe and in Asia. James, Charlie, and Cindy already know that. You can expand your marketbase for the dvd's by adding comentary in Chinese, Japanese, German, and Korean quite easily. I have done that with my books - hired a college student in search of spending money to translate the material. The most I have ever paid for that was $300.

Blackjack, thanks for the compliment. I'm hoping to make it to NJ for this year's event, but have a few things up in the air that prevent me from a final call right now. But if I can make it, I'd be happy to help.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I am away on vacation now until mid april, and won't have the opportunity to post as frequently as I'd like.

As far as taping is concerend, there are many reasons that having the event filmed remains unlikely. Accustats is NOT a possibility. Having less than professional film crews is also NOT a possibility.

The costs associated with filming last years event had more far reaching effects than just monetary. It's not true that we were disappointed with last years dvd sales, because they only went on sale a month or 2 ago. We suffered with almost 10 month delays. They have only been on the market for a very short time. Part of the problem is that they wont be selling long enough to really determine if itwasworth itor not before deciding whether the economics make sense.

As far as michael felder is concerend, I am really upset that he filmed this event (or parts of it) and goes against what players and spectators were told. This is the first I am hearing of this. I will excersise restraint in announcing what i think the consequences should be.......


rg

I don't get this. Certainly, if you're hiring a crew to do this, I understand that no one else should be allowed to tape. BUT, if no one is going to produce "official" taped coverage, then you should allow the amateurs to take a stab at it.

I don't know about everyone else, but I loved John Schmidt's home produced 14.1 DVD, with his commentary. I even liked the Fejien run w/o commentary and thought it was great just with ambient sound and when they panned to show you the rest of the room.

Just think how grateful we'd all be if they'd had amateur video of Johnston City or during Mosconi and Greenleaf's time...

Lou Figueroa