14.1 Cue Ball

[rodcar]

Would like to know what the regulation cue ball is 14.1 these days. When I played back in the 60's it was a blue dot. Have had a renewed interest in the game lately and trying to get a few friends to learn it. Using a red circle cue ball I have noticed it is more difficult to break racks and clusters than it was using the blue dot. Seems the blue dot was slightly heavier ball. Back in the 60's we only used a red dot for nine ball.

 

[Kevin Lindstrom]

I really like the blue circle cue ball that came with my new set of Centennials.

The red circle cue ball is slightly yellowish and weighs a few grams less than the object balls. Whereas the blue cirlcle cue ball weighs identical to the Centennial balls themselves.

Kevin

 

[stevekur1]

I prefer to use the measles cue ball by aramith. But watch put for the imposter measel ball.

I use it with the Aramith Tournament Edition set.

Steve

 

[rodcar]

Regulation Pro rule

Not sure if there is a regulation ball used in pro tournaments. The blue circle ball seems to be different than the blue dot we used years ago.

 

[sfleinen]

Differences between the various cue balls

Folks:

Please be careful when using the phrases "blue dot," "blue circle," "red dot," "red circle," etc. These terms are NOT interchangeable!

Reason: there's a difference between a blue dot and a blue circle ball, as well as a difference between a red dot and a red circle ball.

For instance:

• Blue Dot -- This is a generic "old time" cue ball that certain folks are remembering/recalling. However, be careful, because this ball is slightly lighter than the object balls, and is a bit "zingey" (especially with draw). The Blue Circle ball is better to use than the Blue Dot ball. Speaking of which...
  
  
• Blue Circle -- This is the cue ball delivered with a genuine set of Brunswick (Saluc) Centennials. This is probably the most favorite cue ball of straight poolers, neck-and-neck with the Aramith Pro Cup (measles) cue ball
  
  
• Red Dot -- this is a HEAVYWEIGHT (6.75 ounces!) cue ball used on the Dynamo barboxes (the ones that differentiated the cue ball from the object balls by its sheer weight). This cue ball is at least a full ounce HEAVIER than the object balls, so that it is able to trip the "trap door" inside the Dynamo tables for the cue ball return. Because of this, perfect stop shots are IMPOSSIBLE with this cue ball, because of the "heavier mass hitting a lighter mass" physics problem -- the object ball is not heavy enough to absorb all the kinetic energy away from the cue ball, and thus the cue ball lunges forward a bit after contact with the object ball, even with a good stop-shot stroke, and even if a little bit of draw is applied (the cue ball will lunge forward a bit, then roll backwards with the draw spin). Not a good ball to use for 14.1 by any stretch of the imagination.
  
  
• Red Circle -- It's properly known as the Aramith Red Circle cue ball. This is a standalone cue ball product from Aramith (it is offered standalone only, and is not bundled with any of Aramith's full ball sets). This cue ball is a bit lighter in weight than the object balls, and is therefore a favorite of 9-ballers, because "it makes it easier for them to move the rock around" (especially with draw). Being a standalone cue ball product that definitely shows differences from the rest of the object balls, this is not considered a good ball to use for 14.1.
  
  
• "Measles" ("red-dotted" or "red-spotted") ball -- This is the Aramith Pro Cup ball seen (and used) at tournaments, on TV, etc. This ball weighs exactly the same as the object balls, just like the Brunswick (Saluc) Centennial blue circle ball, and is therefore GREAT for 14.1. It's actually my favorite ball, because of weight, texture, and reaction on the table. Be careful, though, for there are "measles ball knockoffs" out there (e.g. the knockoff offered by Sterling) that are not the same thing. An easy way to tell the knockoffs, is that they usually have eight (8) red spots instead of Aramith's trademarked six (6) red spots.

I agree with Steve Kurtz that the Aramith Pro Cup (measles) ball is probably the favorite cue ball to use in 14.1. Its extra price over other cue balls is worth it, because it's a one-time purchase -- it's not like a consumable you're going to be buying often. (And I laugh at those people that will balk at the price of an Aramith Pro Cup cue ball, but then they go out and buy $25 Kamui chalk without batting an eye!)

Hope this is helpful info,
-Sean

 

[mnhighrunlist]

I prefer the blue circle cue ball that comes with the Brunswick Centennials.

-Dennis

 

[acousticsguru]

Folks:

Please be careful when using the phrases "blue dot," "blue circle," "red dot," "red circle," etc. These terms are NOT interchangeable!

Reason: there's a difference between a blue dot and a blue circle ball, as well as a difference between a red dot and a red circle ball.

For instance:

• Blue Dot -- This is a generic "old time" cue ball that certain folks are remembering/recalling. However, be careful, because this ball is slightly lighter than the object balls, and is a bit "zingey" (especially with draw). The Blue Circle ball is better to use than the Blue Dot ball. Speaking of which...
  
  
• Blue Circle -- This is the cue ball delivered with a genuine set of Brunswick (Saluc) Centennials. This is probably the most favorite cue ball of straight poolers, neck-and-neck with the Aramith Pro Cup (measles) cue ball
  
  
• Red Dot -- this is a HEAVYWEIGHT (6.75 ounces!) cue ball used on the Dynamo barboxes (the ones that differentiated the cue ball from the object balls by its sheer weight). This cue ball is at least a full ounce HEAVIER than the object balls, so that it is able to trip the "trap door" inside the Dynamo tables for the cue ball return. Because of this, perfect stop shots are IMPOSSIBLE with this cue ball, because of the "heavier mass hitting a lighter mass" physics problem -- the object ball is not heavy enough to absorb all the kinetic energy away from the cue ball, and thus the cue ball lunges forward a bit after contact with the object ball, even with a good stop-shot stroke, and even if a little bit of draw is applied (the cue ball will lunge forward a bit, then roll backwards with the draw spin). Not a good ball to use for 14.1 by any stretch of the imagination.
  
  
• Red Circle -- It's properly known as the Aramith Red Circle cue ball. This is the "zinger" cue ball that is approximately an ounce less in weight than the object balls, and is therefore a favorite of 9-ballers, because "it makes it easier for them to move the rock around" (especially with draw). This is definitely *NOT* a good ball to use for 14.1!
  
  
• "Measles" ("red-dotted" or "red-spotted") ball -- This is the Aramith Pro Cup ball seen (and used) at tournaments, on TV, etc. This ball weighs exactly the same as the object balls, just like the Brunswick (Saluc) Centennial blue circle ball, and is therefore GREAT for 14.1. It's actually my favorite ball, because of weight, texture, and reaction on the table. Be careful, though, for there are "measles ball knockoffs" out there (e.g. the knockoff offered by Sterling) that are not the same thing. An easy way to tell the knockoffs, is that they usually have eight (8) red spots instead of Aramith's trademarked six (6) red spots.

I agree with Steve Kurtz that the Aramith Pro Cup (measles) ball is probably the favorite cue ball to use in 14.1. Its extra price over other cue balls is worth it, because it's a one-time purchase -- it's not like a consumable you're going to be buying often. (And I laugh at those people that will balk at the price of an Aramith Pro Cup cue ball, but then they go out and buy $25 Kamui chalk without batting an eye!)

Hope this is helpful info,
-Sean

I love this forum…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[rodcar]

More info.

Hope this isn't over thinking the subject, but what got me curious about the various balls used was, we were using a measle ball and I noticed a blue circle ball near by so we compared the two. The blue circle was noticeably, just slightly smaller, so we weighed them and the blue circle was lighter as well. Not sure if the blue circle was just worn or there is slight variations in size. Any way this one was definitely lighter than the measle ball and smaller. Sounds like the measle ball is the way to go in order to have consistent play.

 

[sfleinen]

Hope this isn't over thinking the subject, but what got me curious about the various balls used was, we were using a measle ball and I noticed a blue circle ball near by so we compared the two. The blue circle was noticeably, just slightly smaller, so we weighed them and the blue circle was lighter as well. Not sure if the blue circle was just worn or there is slight variations in size. Any way this one was definitely lighter than the measle ball and smaller. Sounds like the measle ball is the way to go in order to have consistent play.

rodcar:

I would suspect the blue circle was worn over use (it's probably from an original Centennial set from the pool room, and worn down from decades of cleaning and polishing). Measles balls weren't introduced into the market until 9 years ago (2003), and didn't start showing up in pool rooms until a few years ago -- and even then, probably by customers, not the pool room owner. That measles ball was brought in by your friend, yes?

Either ball (blue circle, or measles ball) is great for 14.1. The idea is that you want the cue ball to be as "same as possible" as the object balls. The other balls in my post above (red dot, red circle, blue dot) are just too dissimilar to the object balls that they aren't worth consideration (I'll go out on a limb to say that).

-Sean

 

[rodcar]

Thanks Much!

Some excellent information, thanks much, really appreciate it.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Despite the fact that the Blue Circle and Measle ball are both official size and weight, I do seem to notice a difference in how they play that I can only assume is due to a difference in their composition, or material, and how that material interacts with the cloth.

The measle ball just seems to play flatter, and the action more linear than the blue circle. This is the best way I can describe it. Anyone else notice this?

I'd also be curious if anyone knows FOR A FACT that there is a difference between the red circle and blue circle cue balls. The reason I ask is that Aramith claims the Cents and Super Pros are identical (save graphics) and both are matched sets. So wouldn't their corresponding cue balls be the same as the rest of the balls in the set? If so, then the two cue balls have to be the same.

 

[Kevin Lindstrom]

Despite the fact that the Blue Circle and Measle ball are both official size and weight, I do seem to notice a difference in how they play that I can only assume is due to a difference in their composition, or material, and how that material interacts with the cloth.

The measle ball just seems to play flatter, and the action more linear than the blue circle. This is the best way I can describe it. Anyone else notice this?

I'd also be curious if anyone knows FOR A FACT that there is a difference between the red circle and blue circle cue balls. The reason I ask is that Aramith claims the Cents and Super Pros are identical (save graphics) and both are matched sets. So wouldn't their corresponding cue balls be the same as the rest of the balls in the set? If so, then the two cue balls have to be the same.

I think based on color and apperance alone that the blue circle and red circle are two different balls at least in material. It is possible that they both weigh the same and are the same size but I won't know for sure until I weigh them to compare. I plan to weigh both cue balls and both brands of object balls to get a good comparison. in my mind the red circle cue ball plays slightly lighter than the blue circle ball. I want to see if this is true or if it all just in my head.

Kevin

 

[sfleinen]

Despite the fact that the Blue Circle and Measle ball are both official size and weight, I do seem to notice a difference in how they play that I can only assume is due to a difference in their composition, or material, and how that material interacts with the cloth.

The measle ball just seems to play flatter, and the action more linear than the blue circle. This is the best way I can describe it. Anyone else notice this?

I'd also be curious if anyone knows FOR A FACT that there is a difference between the red circle and blue circle cue balls. The reason I ask is that Aramith claims the Cents and Super Pros are identical (save graphics) and both are matched sets. So wouldn't their corresponding cue balls be the same as the rest of the balls in the set? If so, then the two cue balls have to be the same.

Mitch:

Take a look:

http://saluc.com/html/billiard/index.php?idlien=10

In their regular range of balls, the Pro Cup (measles ball) is the standard cue ball for 4 out of the 5 sets shown on the page. It's not clear what cue ball is offered in the 5th set (the Premiere set), which is their entry-level ball set product, but I suspect it's the "Aramith Cue Ball" shown here:

http://saluc.com/html/billiard/index.php?idlien=13

I would offer that the "Premiere" ball set, being Aramith's entry-level product, is not a product that we straight poolers would be interested in anyway. Most would opt for one of the Super Pro (and higher) series, no?

Aramith does not offer the Red Circle ball in any ball sets.

And, I have all of the cue balls I outlined above in a previous post. I've weighed them, and although I don't have the weights handy (I'm at work), I can post these later, if this will satisfy you? (In the meantime, you can do an "Advanced Search" here in AZB, with my screenname and some keywords like "blue circle", "centennial", etc., and it should turn up a past post from me with those cue ball weights. I do remember posting them.)

Hope that's both helpful and qualifies for the "for a fact" nature of your request,
-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I think based on color and apperance alone that the blue circle and red circle are two different balls at least in material. It is possible that they both weigh the same and are the same size but I won't know for sure until I weigh them to compare. I plan to weigh both cue balls and both brands of object balls to get a good comparison. in my mind the red circle cue ball plays slightly lighter than the blue circle ball. I want to see if this is true or if it all just in my head.

Kevin

Kevin (EDIT: and Sean), the only problem I have when size, weights (and color) of balls are posted is the information doesn't mean much to me. What I mean is that the Cents and Super Pros are matched sets, meaning the balls IN EACH SET are matched by size, weight and color. But there is a range for both size and weight in the regulations. So comparing the weight of a single blue circle cue ball to a single red circle doesn't necessarily mean anything. Two blue circle balls from different sets can also have different weights. And size, weight and color, of course, can vary from manufacturing batch, and over time.

From the WPA Equipment specs:

All balls must be composed of cast phenolic resin plastic and measure 2 ¼ (+.005) inches [5.715 cm (+ .127 mm)] in diameter and weigh 5 ½ to 6 oz [156 to 170 gms]

Sean, I would agree the measle ball is probably not the same composition as all the sets it comes with given the different price points. And it very well may be different than the red or blue circle balls. As I said, I note a distinct difference in the way the blue circle and measle balls play. But the measle ball aside, what I'm curious about is any actual difference between the blue and red circle balls given the fact that Saluc says the Cents and Super Pros are identical sets. Also, considering that the red circle and blue circle only come with one set (Super Pros and Cents) it suggests that they are the same as the the rest of the balls they come with. If that is true and the two sets are the same, the so are both cue balls.

 

[sfleinen]

Kevin (EDIT: and Sean), the only problem I have when size, weights (and color) of balls are posted is the information doesn't mean much to me. What I mean is that the Cents and Super Pros are matched sets, meaning the balls IN EACH SET are matched by size, weight and color. But there is a range for both size and weight in the regulations. So comparing the weight of a single blue circle cue ball to a single red circle doesn't necessarily mean anything. Two blue circle balls from different sets can also have different weights. And color, of course, can vary from manufacturing batch, and over time.

From the WPA Equipment specs:

Mitch:

So, taking into consideration the fact that 1.) characteristics such as size, weight, color, etc. are meaningless to you, and 2.) the WPA rules for billiard balls themselves cover a wide range of balls, are you trying to say that the selection of a particular cue ball is meaningless?

I think a lot of folks on here who have played with various cue balls, know that they indeed can play differently.

If your point is rather to use the ball that came with the set, then no doubt, I agree. It *should* be matched to the object balls. But if it's a set that's been cobbled together to begin with (e.g. there are plenty of these available on eBay where someone took a set a balls and threw a Red Circle ball in there -- because 9-ballers, being the biggest sales demographic for pool balls, "like" that cue ball for previously mentioned reasons), it's probably good to make sure to use a cue ball that is recognized to be as close as possible to shipping sets of balls. That would be either the Blue Circle, or the Pro Cup (measles) ball, that ship with the Centennials and lion's share of Aramith's ball set products respectively.

Do you agree, or no?
-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

[...]
Sean, I would agree the measle ball is probably not the same composition as all the sets it comes with given the different price points. And it very well may be different than the red or blue circle balls. As I said, I note a distinct difference in the way the blue circle and measle balls play. But the measle ball aside, what I'm curious about is any actual difference between the blue and red circle balls given the fact that Saluc says the Cents and Super Pros are identical sets. Also, considering that the red circle and blue circle only come with one set (Super Pros and Cents) it suggests that they are the same as the the rest of the balls they come with. If that is true and the two sets are the same, the so are both cue balls.

Sorry about that Mitch -- I responded while you were still editing your post. I'll respond to the above-new text you since added.

You state:

"Also, considering that the red circle and blue circle only come with one set (Super Pros and Cents) it suggests that they are the same as the the rest of the balls they come with. If that is true and the two sets are the same, the so are both cue balls."

One thing I think you're glossing over, is that the Red Circle does not ship with any Aramith ball sets. That's a definite, based on viewing their product selections. Given that known information, I'm not sure why you keep throwing the Red Circle in the mix, when it's clearly a separate and distinct "cue ball product" from Aramith?

I can understand your observation that, in your experience, the blue circle and the measles ball play differently. But then you throw the Red Circle in the mix with the phrase "shipping ball sets." That information is incorrect -- no Super Pro sets are shipped with the Red Circle.

I hope you're not taking exception to some of the comments about the Red Circle, because "you own one" and it's your favorite ball or something like that? (If so, the comments weren't meant to be taken personally -- but just a general statement to someone [like the OP] who was trying to select a cue ball to buy, new, to have.)

-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Sean, thanks for that clarification. I guess I have been operating under a misconception - I though the red circle was the ball that came with the Super Pros. Given that, maybe my questions make more sense to you, doh!

BTW, I don't own a red circle ball so I don't have any problems with people not liking it. But the red circle ball is used at rooms I play in so I do have some experience with them and I would say that I think the red and blue circle balls play more similar to each other than the measle ball plays to either of them. I guess this might lead me to the same conclusion - that they are close to being the same ball, and that the measle ball is definitely different.


Just out of curiosity, does my comment about the measle ball playing flatter or more linear than the blue circle ball make any sense to you? I just can't think of another way to decribe it.

 

[sfleinen]

Sean, thanks for that clarification. I guess I have been operating under a misconception - I though the red circle was the ball that came with the Super Pros. Given that, maybe my questions make more sense to you, doh!

BTW, I don't own a red circle ball so I don't have any problems with people not liking it. But the red circle ball is used at rooms I play in so I do have some experience with them and I would say that I think the red and blue circle balls play more similar to each other than the measle ball plays to either of them. I guess this might lead me to the same conclusion - that they are close to being the same ball, and that the measle ball is definitely different.


Just out of curiosity, does my comment about the measle ball playing flatter or more linear than the blue circle ball make any sense to you? I just can't think of another way to decribe it.

Mitch:

Yep, now that I know you were merely assuming the Red Circle, perhaps "being an Aramith product and probably one of the two most common cue balls out there" (the other being the Blue Circle, obviously), therefore "ships with Aramith ball sets." Unfortunately, that's one of the biggest misconceptions out there, and we have the unfortunate circumstance where this cue ball -- the Red Circle -- is being used in non-9-ball tournaments (e.g. 14.1, one pocket) for that reason.

Just to give you a little background info, I used to be the league coordinator at the now-defunct Danbury, CT branch of Boston Billiards. I saw all variations of the theme when it came to billiard balls. And, I've seen an unfortunately common situation where "cobbled ball sets" are sold by vendors, which: 1.) had Red Circles thrown-in because 9-ballers recognize this ball and including it increases the likelihood of selling this set, and 2.) the Blue Circle Centennial, being one of the oldest / most-recognized cue balls out there, is also one of the MOST COPIED / COUNTERFEITED cue balls out there as well. Yep, there are imposter "blue circles" out there, and we saw them at Boston Billiards. The way you can tell, is the color / opacity of the material, the weight (Aramith's balls are very tight, specification-wise, from ball run to ball run), and, well, trying the ball out on the table. I've seen blue circles that perform like red circles, because the Chinese company opportunistically wanted it to have a blue circle, yet appeal to 9-ballers by being lighter. (Pure conjecture on my part, but why else would they do this?)

Steve Kurtz also mentioned a warning about imposter measles balls out there, and he's right -- watch out!

Getting to the performance aspect of these balls, as a league coordinator that had to make sure the cue balls were genuine, I found that the performance difference between a genuine Blue Circle Centennial and a genuine Pro Cup measles ball are smaller than the difference between these same two balls and a genuine Aramith Red Circle.

It's a shame, but these cheap imposter balls are really skewing the definitive performance characteristics between the individual genuine products!

-Sean

P.S.: At Boston Billiards, we had customers "stealing" the Blue Circle cue balls, and substituting the el cheapo imposters in their place when they turned in the balls. We suspected it was another pool hall in the area, but we couldn't prove it (no video cameras on the tables). Of course, when you challenge the customer with the assertion that a foreign cue ball is in the tray of balls, you'd get the typical shrug of the shoulders and an "I don't know -- that's the same set of balls you gave me when I came in!" excuse.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Well, I know my blue circle is genuine because it came with my Cents, and my measle ball is genuine because it came in the Aramith packaging and was bought from a reputable dealer (either PoolDawg or Seyberts). But I guess my red circle experience is unclear as I've only used these in pool halls when they came with whatever set of balls I was given.

So, with all this new (to me) info, what cue ball comes with the Super Pro set? And then my original question would be amended to asking if this ball (instead of the red circle) is the same ball as the genuine blue circle.

 

[sfleinen]

Well, I know my blue circle is genuine because it came with my Cents, and my measle ball is genuine because it came in the Aramith packaging and was bought from a reputable dealer (either PoolDawg or Seyberts). But I guess my red circle experience is unclear as I've only used these in pool halls when they came with whatever set of balls I was given.

So, with all this new (to me) info, what cue ball comes with the Super Pro set? And then my original question would be amended to asking if this ball (instead of the red circle) is the same ball as the genuine blue circle.

Ok, I'm glad that you know for a fact that your blue circle and measles ball is genuine. A lot of folks don't. You have a leg up, there.

As mentioned previously (see the previous post #13 with links), the Pro Cup (measles) ball is STANDARD with all but Aramith's lowest-end ball set offering.

To answer the second part of your question, no, the blue circle ball is not the same ball as the measles ball. At least I don't think so -- you can tell a bit of difference between them. The blue circle tends to be a bit -- just a bit -- more "lively" than the measles ball. But I've found the measles ball to tend to be more accurate with stun and draw than the blue circle, in a side-by-side comparison. Not by much, but noticeable if you pay attention. (It might be because I'm paying attention to the red spots, and thus my "touch" is enhanced -- or something like that.)

If try that with a Red Circle, <zing!> -- that ball goes everywhere. Especially if you smack it with draw -- better get out of the way, because that ball slams in reverse and will hit you.

-Sean