2 APA Questions

Mike Templeton

Mike Templeton

Confidence........
Silver Member
I was playing 2 small weekly tournaments last Saturday night and last night, and 2 different rules questions came up. Both were being played by APA rules. I would like to get a ruling from the board on what the correct ruling would be.

First was 9-ball. The shooter was hooked very badly, and couldn't hit the lowest ball. There was a pretty simple combination (the 2-9). The shooter then purposely shot the 5 ball (which was in the middle of the table) with his cue into the 2-9 to break it up. The shooter said it should be ball in hand only. The other player thought that it was a flagrant foul of some type, and should have been loss of game. Does anyone know the proper ruling on this?

Second was 8-ball. A player was at the table shooting at his group of balls. He made a good hit, but then with his cue, he inadvertantly knocked the 8 ball into the side pocket. No one knew if they should replace the 8 ball (like other balls that are touched with a players cue), or if it should be loss of game. Any help on this situatuation?

Thanks,
Mike
 
Mike...In the 9-ball game the shooter was correct. There is no "sportmanship' infraction for taking a 9-ball combination out of play. It would, however, be b-i-h for the incoming player. Don't know why there would be such a fuss. In APA 9-ball, the 9 is only worth 1 point more than any other ball! :rolleyes: :D

In the 8-ball game, I believe the 8 should be replaced, as closely as possible, to it's original position. APA plays CB fouls only. As long as the shooter legally pocketed his OB he remains at the table.

These come from my recollections as an APA L.O., but that was 15 years ago!:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Mike Templeton said:
I was playing 2 small weekly tournaments last Saturday night and last night, and 2 different rules questions came up. Both were being played by APA rules. I would like to get a ruling from the board on what the correct ruling would be.

First was 9-ball. The shooter was hooked very badly, and couldn't hit the lowest ball. There was a pretty simple combination (the 2-9). The shooter then purposely shot the 5 ball (which was in the middle of the table) with his cue into the 2-9 to break it up. The shooter said it should be ball in hand only. The other player thought that it was a flagrant foul of some type, and should have been loss of game. Does anyone know the proper ruling on this?

Second was 8-ball. A player was at the table shooting at his group of balls. He made a good hit, but then with his cue, he inadvertantly knocked the 8 ball into the side pocket. No one knew if they should replace the 8 ball (like other balls that are touched with a players cue), or if it should be loss of game. Any help on this situatuation?

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...
8 ball should just be spotted....well...not sure if replaced on the table near where it was or spotted...but it is not a loss.
As for the 9 ball game....the question isn't clear enough. Are you saying he hit the 5 instead of the cue ball or he hit the 5 into the 9-2 by striking the cue ball first. If he hit the cue ball first it is a legal play.
 
leehayes said:
8 ball should just be spotted....well...not sure if replaced on the table near where it was or spotted...but it is not a loss.
As for the 9 ball game....the question isn't clear enough. Are you saying he hit the 5 instead of the cue ball or he hit the 5 into the 9-2 by striking the cue ball first. If he hit the cue ball first it is a legal play.
Click to expand...
He intentionally hit the 5 ball first with his cue.

Also, it was not league, but a tournament using APA rules.

Mike
 
In the 8-Ball game, the 8 is replaced as close as possible to where it was and is not a foul in any way.

I am not sure on the 9-Ball but in league it would definitely be a sportsmanship violation.
 
From the rulebook

6. Balls on the Floor - If the 8-ball is knocked on the
floor, it is loss of game.

It is not a foul to
accidentally move any other balls (including the
8-ball)

10. There are various ways to lose:
a. Your opponent pockets his numerical group and
legally pockets the 8-ball.
b. You pocket the 8-ball out of turn or knock it on the
floor.
c. You pocket the 8-ball in the wrong pocket or fail to
properly mark the pocket.
d.You foul the cue ball and then pocket the 8-ball.
e. When playing the 8-ball, you scratch.


Obviously, the eight was not knocked to the floor. Unless as said in 10.d. the player fouled the cue ball and then pocketed the 8, this would be a loss.
 
I would agree with the posters that said it was a sportsmanship violation. I would have stopped the game until I had a decision from a referee because I do believe that is loss of game.
 
Scott Lee's ruling looks to be correct.

The only thing at issue is a clarification.
Did the shooter, shoot the cue ball into the 5 ball into the 2 and 9?
Which is how Scott and I interpreted the initial statement.

Or did the shooter, ignore the cue ball (never touched it), and hit the 5 ball directly with his stick?
Which doesn't really make alot of sense, cuz if he was gonna ignore the cue ball, then hit just hit the 2 9 combo with his stick. Neither would be beneficial however... So what's the point?
 
FLICKit said:
Scott Lee's ruling looks to be correct.

The only thing at issue is a clarification.
Did the shooter, shoot the cue ball into the 5 ball into the 2 and 9?
Which is how Scott and I interpreted the initial statement.

Or did the shooter, ignore the cue ball (never touched it), and hit the 5 ball directly with his stick?
Which doesn't really make alot of sense, cuz if he was gonna ignore the cue ball, then hit just hit the 2 9 combo with his stick. Neither would be beneficial however... So what's the point?
Click to expand...
He intentionally hit the 5 ball directly with his stick. I think he didn't hit the 2-9 directly because he wanted to tie the 2-5 up after he prevented the 2-9 combo from being made, so the incoming player would have less chance to run the table and win the game.

Why would it not be beneficial to break up the 2-9 with the 5 when he couldn't hit the 2 or 9 with the cue ball?

Mike
 
Mike Templeton said:
He intentionally hit the 5 ball directly with his stick. I think he didn't hit the 2-9 directly because he wanted to tie the 2-5 up after he prevented the 2-9 combo from being made, so the incoming player would have less chance to run the table and win the game.

Why would it not be beneficial to break up the 2-9 with the 5 when he couldn't hit the 2 or 9 with the cue ball?
Click to expand...

Because the technical ruling would be that the balls MUST BE REPLACED. Thus there'd be no gain from such action.

Now, since this was a purposeful action rather than an accidental occurence, that would escalate the matter from a normal ruling up to a sportsmanship issue. As a violation of sportsmanship, it would or should be escalated & handled appropriately...
 
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FLICKit said:
Because the technical ruling would be that the balls MUST BE REPLACED. Thus there'd be no gain from such action.

Now, since this was a purposeful action rather than an accidental occurence, that would esclate the matter from a normal ruling up to a sportsmanship issue. As a violation of sportsmanship, it would or should be escalated & handled appropriately...
Click to expand...
That's what I would think as well, but I don't see a rule in my book about replacing balls in this situation. Can you give me a rule I could cite if this happens again?

Mike
 
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Having just recently "reffed" for our LO in a playoff finals match, I had plenty of screwy things happen during the night so I feel well-prepared to answer the 9-ball question (as the 8-ball question has been answered correctly).

If the shooter shot the CB into the 5 to break up the combination because they were hooked too bad to make a good hit, then it would just be BIH and no sportsmanship issues. This could actually be considered a smart play in a regular 9-ball game depending on the layout of the table and the skill of the opponent.

If the shooter hit the 5 with his cue and knock a bunch of balls out of place, then it should be treated like balls knocked out of place in 8-ball. All balls accidently (purposely) moved illegally should be spotted as close as to what they were. As Mr. Lee stated, this shouldn't be too big of a deal since the 9-ball is only worth 1 additional point.

Now if this occurred right at the conclusion of the match, then it's most likely a sportsmanship issue. Depending on how the match had gone up to that point, calling out a first sportsmanship warning should really just be a warning. It sounds like BIH occurred no matter what, so a penalty has already been accessed. To me, it doesn't sound like enough occurred to make any claims for a loss of a match. You would also really need a third party available to make such a call and its to my understanding that sportsmanship warnings aren't a guarantee of any type of loss of game or match. Really becomes a judgment call. There's no doubt that you can complain to the LO about a certain player or team and they can take steps to warn or penalize a team.

Also keep in mind that most of us are playing in bars and you get all kinds of characters all over the personality spectrum. This makes sportsmanship fouls more difficult to call unless that person is habitual about it.
 
any tournament director worth a sh1t should give you the 9 ball game. that is clearly BS and bad sportsmanship.

the 8 ball, as others have said, should just be replaced, no foul.

-s
 
Isn't there a rule in the APA rulebook that says intentionally moving balls (by means other than striking the CB with a legal stroke) is a sportsmanship violation? I thought there was.

For the 8-ball situation, the non-shooter is required to replace the 8-ball where he or she thinks it was before it was knocked into the pocket.

-Andrew
 
Wait, I want to get this straight here so that I and other readers perfectly understand. In the 9-ball game, the shooter broke up the combination using the 5-ball INSTEAD of using the cueball??? I mean, he pretended the cueball was orange???

If that were the case, I'd just throw him out of the tournament. Seriously, that might be the most insane foul I've ever heard of.
 
Had to make me go do the work & look it up.... ;)

9. Fouls section g.
Any balls moved accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot, it must be replaced before the shot is taken.

(Now, please don't get to one of those nitty gritty semantical battles, where you go this rule doesn't apply because... and then never listen to anything anyone else tells you after that...)
 
This would get his goat

If I had been there as TD and this had been brought to me to decide. I would have stated that because it is cueball fouls only, that all the balls should be returned as closely as possible to their original position. I would have then personally put the balls back where they had been and I would make sure the 2-9 was a dead on shot.
I would then tell the offender to take his shot and if he intentional moved the object balls without using the cueball it would be considered sharking by the APA rules and a loss of game.
I would also make a point of watching at least some of that game so he would see I was serious.

I do not think he would be happy with me as a TD. Which I do quite often. I am also a team captain on both an 8 and 9 ball APA teams and consider myself to be somewhat proficient with the rules. But by no means an expert on the rules.

JMO
 
Flettir said:
I do not think he would be happy with me as a TD. Which I do quite often.
Click to expand...

he would like me as TD less, as the least I would do is give the game. If he proceeded to give me shit, it would get worse.

-s
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Wait, I want to get this straight here so that I and other readers perfectly understand. In the 9-ball game, the shooter broke up the combination using the 5-ball INSTEAD of using the cueball??? I mean, he pretended the cueball was orange???

If that were the case, I'd just throw him out of the tournament. Seriously, that might be the most insane foul I've ever heard of.
Click to expand...

First of all, I DO NOT condone the shooter striking the 5-ball with his cue stick to break up the combo. But, he was in a do-or-die situation in this game and he tried (however wrong it was) to do SOMETHING to NOT lose the game in question. As insane as it sounds, since we don't know what the outcome of this travesty was (the OP did not tell us how this was resolved), it is entirely possible that this ploy "saved his bacon" in this particular instance.

Also, me thinks that a lot of the early confusion by some posters in the interpretation of what the exact scenario was (in the 9-ball game) could have been avoided if the OP would have either used the word ball or the word stick after the word cue.

Maniac
 
Hey Jude

he pretended Orange was White ... LOL It was a deliberate act on his part, which is a unsportsman like violation, and should be loss of game.

(otherwise (exagerated example), he could go to each ball roll all of them in a big pile to keep his opponent from running out, and just give up ball in hand ... LOL)

If he had done it accidently, then it should be just a warning.
 
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