526 consecutive balls

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You know, even if Mosconi signed something attesting to something you can't nessasaraly believe it. He was not totally honest from my personal experience.
I hear you. This cue is in the Denny Glenn Collection. He and his brother are the foremost authorities and collectors of champion's cues. The collection is astonishing. Denny said he bought the cue from Willie's widow and confirmed it was THE cue he used. Good enough for me.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
We've been over this numerous times and what you are saying is totally incorrect.

Yes, he put on exhibitions for years and would run 100 virtually every time. Or, if he got out with a lesser number, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" do it, and then launch into his trick shots. By all accounts, he just stopped cold when he got to 100 except for that one night when the crowd urged him on and he ran the 526.

Then it was off to the next room or town for the next exhibition, sometimes the same day. He was there to play a match, put on a show, collect a paycheck, and move on. Willie did not care about high runs. Charlie Ursitti reported that he racked for Mosconi before he played Fats and when he got past 600, with a perfect break shot at hand, Mosconi unscrewed and reputedly said: See, running over 600 is no big deal.

Lou Figueroa
This is accurate. When Willie continued his 526 ball run, he continued past 100 as a favor to his friend who had arranged the exhibition. As Charlie Ursitti, Mosconi's business manager, has noted, it is a mythical claim that high run is something Mosconi was terribly concerned about, although he did focus on high runs alone at times.

Legendary referee Cue Ball Kelly has noted that when Mike Eufemia did a series of five exhibitions in five different poolrooms and ran 150 and out in all five of them, meaning 750 balls without ever giving up the table, it was the greatest exhibition of straight pool ever, including Mosconi's 526. Eufemia's remarkable feat has been posted about by Bob Jewett, as well. That said, it's well within the realm of possibility that Mosconi ran 100 and out in many consecutive exhibitions, as well --- I just don't know, and I suspect we'll never know.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
As Charlie Ursitti, Mosconi's business manager, has noted, it is a mythical claim that high run is something Mosconi was terribly concerned about, although he focus on high runs alone at times.
Please see my note from Mike Shamos. It is totally at odds with this.
 
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middleofnowhere

Registered
Will anyone ever play 14.1 better then Willie?
Probably not.
He was technically on another level.
I played Willie an exhibition game in 1964 he did most of the playing and I did most of the racking.
You really had to see him in person to fully understand the ease in which he ran racks.
I've been around pool since 1961 primarily in N.J.
I've seen in person most of the great 14.1 players and a lot of them from back then to now have been great.
But nobody played the game like Willie.
Of course I never saw Greenleaf so maybe he did as Willie fine tuned his game studying Ralph.
Will another Willie come along?
Possibly but doubtful.
I saw Mosconi play a lot. In fact today I would be considered a stalker I attended do many of his exhibitions. He would run a 100 or more at will almost effortlessly.

In regard to the high runs. If Mosconi was given the same set up that John used and his only goal was to make high runs and Mosconi was in his prime. There is no doubt he would have put together massive runs.

Most of the high runs we hear about from the great players were off the cuff happenings. I doubt any of them spent their time trying to set high run records. If they did, going all the way back to the earliest players, they would all have massive high runs.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Please see my note from Mike Shamos. It is totally at odds with this.
Not saying there weren't times when this is what Mosconi focused on at times, for there were.

But Ursitti, whom I knew well, probably spent much more time with Mosconi than any person with whom Willie was not related, and I have discussed this with him. I'm more inclined to go with Charlie Ursitti's view here. Though I've met Mosconi on a few occasions, I never talked about this issue with him.

All that said, Mike Shamos, whom I've met a few times also but not in over ten years, is a very credible authority in my books, one of the most important pool historians ever, so his views must be taken very seriously.
 

justnum

Principal Investigator of Magic Trick Shots
Silver Member
If Jean Balukas had competed with the men she could be a record holder but never told anyone because of the pool culture against her.
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
I hear you. This cue is in the Denny Glenn Collection. He and his brother are the foremost authorities and collectors of champion's cues. The collection is astonishing. Denny said he bought the cue from Willie's widow and confirmed it was THE cue he used. Good enough for me.
I hear you. This cue is in the Denny Glenn Collection. He and his brother are the foremost authorities and collectors of champion's cues. The collection is astonishing. Denny said he bought the cue from Willie's widow and confirmed it was THE cue he used. Good enough for me.
I knew Pete Glenn he used to play in my pool room. I played him banks many times and sold him a few cues. Regarding Mosconi, I am just saying I know of at least one cue he misrepresented to a collector as his that was not. The guy wanted a Mosconi cue and he got one. I guess technically it was Mosconi's (for a day) but not one he ever played with.
 

gerryf

Well-known member
This is accurate. When Willie continued his 526 ball run, he continued past 100 as a favor to his friend who had arranged the exhibition. As Charlie Ursitti, Mosconi's business manager, has noted, it is a mythical claim that high run is something Mosconi was terribly concerned about, although he did focus on high runs alone at times.
Not quite:
On March 19, in Springfield, Ohio, I ran 526 balls, a record that still stands. I was playing a two-hundred-point match against an amateur by the name of Earl Bruney in the East High Billiard Club. He made three balls off the break, then I ran two hundred and just kept going. The run took two hours and ten minutes, which means that over that span I averaged four balls a minute. I finally missed a difficult cut shot, but by that time I was weary; it was almost a relief to have it come to an end.
Cohen, Stanley; Mosconi, Willie. Willie's Game: An Autobiography . Open Road Media. Kindle Edition.​
and Willie also makes it clear that high-run records meant something to him.

The publicists had a grand time promoting the contest because Crane and I were coholders of the high-run exhibition record of 309 balls. Irving had set the mark in Layton, Ohio, in 1939, and I equaled it in October 1945 while I was still in the army.
....
On April 22, I broke the straight-run record of 309 that I shared with Irving Crane, running 322 during an exhibition in Platteville, Wisconsin. I don’t remember the name of the guy I was playing, but I can still picture him, a fairly tall, heavyset fellow with a ruddy complexion. I was conscious of the old mark as I approached it, but the table was wide open and I knew I would have no trouble exceeding 309. The new record did not last long, however.
In November, on Friday the thirteenth, I ran 365 while playing Nixon Jones in Wilmington, North Carolina. I knew Nixon fairly well. He was the owner of the establishment, and I had played there quite often when I was in that part of the country. What was most interesting about that game was that I made the run off my own break. I called the one ball, at the front of the triangle, in the left side pocket.
Cohen, Stanley; Mosconi, Willie. Willie's Game: An Autobiography . Open Road Media. Kindle Edition.​
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
WTF???????????? First he's 'Saint Willie' and now he's 'Willie the Charlatan'?? You guys need to make up your minds. ;)
Come on, we all know what he was like. I saw him yell a a child because he was making noise during an exibition. This is a true story.

He was doing an exibition match at Bakers pool room. It was a 5 day catch up match. I think he was playing Eddie Taylor but I am not sure. By the third day he was acting so bad Mr Baker had had enough throwing him out of the room awarding the prize money to Taylor.

Mosconi complained constantly about everything, actually told the spectators this was the worst room he had ever been in. Of course as many know who played there Bakers was no palace.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Come on, we all know what he was like. I saw him yell a a child because he was making noise during an exibition. This is a true story.

He was doing an exibition match at Bakers pool room. It was a 5 day catch up match. I think he was playing Eddie Taylor but I am not sure. By the third day he was acting so bad Mr Baker had had enough throwing him out of the room awarding the prize money to Taylor.

Mosconi complained constantly about everything, actually told the spectators this was the worst room he had ever been in. Of course as many know who played there Bakers was no palace.
You DID see the 'wink' emoji,right?? Being facetious. I saw/met WM twice. He seemed ok but wrapped way too tight. As for cues, i'm sure he signed a bunch of them saying this-n-that about them. That stuff has gone on in all sports forever.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Come on, we all know what he was like. I saw him yell a a child because he was making noise during an exibition. This is a true story.

He was doing an exibition match at Bakers pool room. It was a 5 day catch up match. I think he was playing Eddie Taylor but I am not sure. By the third day he was acting so bad Mr Baker had had enough throwing him out of the room awarding the prize money to Taylor.

Mosconi complained constantly about everything, actually told the spectators this was the worst room he had ever been in. Of course as many know who played there Bakers was no palace.
Sounds like every pool player I've ever known. Earl makes him look like a saint.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
We've been over this numerous times and what you are saying is totally incorrect.

Yes, he put on exhibitions for years and would run 100 virtually every time. Or, if he got out with a lesser number, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" do it, and then launch into his trick shots. By all accounts, he just stopped cold when he got to 100 except for that one night when the crowd urged him on and he ran the 526.

Then it was off to the next room or town for the next exhibition, sometimes the same day. He was there to play a match, put on a show, collect a paycheck, and move on. Willie did not care about high runs. Charlie Ursitti reported that he racked for Mosconi before he played Fats and when he got past 600, with a perfect break shot at hand, Mosconi unscrewed and reputedly said: See, running over 600 is no big deal.

Lou Figueroa

608 is what mosconi himself claimed.

yes I actually did goof that statement. he did shut it down basically everytime. That’s what I get for thinking without doing so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Z-Nole

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When you think about cue technology, the guy did that with a cue that's maybe not even as nice as your everyday Valley bar cue
Now you’re just showing us you don’t have a clue. I think I remember reading he used a Rambo. That’s a little nicer than a valley, right?
 

arnaldo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When Willie continued his 526 ball run, he continued past 100 as a favor to his friend who had arranged the exhibition.
sjm said:
"When Willie continued his 526 ball run, he continued past 100 as a favor to his friend who had arranged the exhibition."
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Not literally accurate as to the reason Willie continued past 100. He had to continue to shoot past 100 in order to reach the prearranged 200-point limit (set by room owner and friend, George Rood) at which the match was set. After having officially won -- as everyone knows he was heartily urged, by all in attendance, to continue shooting. Here are the record run circumstances according to notable billiards historian and former Chairperson of the BCA Statistics and Records Committee, Mike Shamos:
------------------------------------------------------------------
"The following facts can be established through contemporaneous
evidence: On March 19, 1954 at the East High Billiard Club in
Springfield, Ohio, Mosconi played an announced exhibition against Earl
J. Bruney, a local Springfield player. (Usually Mosconi advertised in
advance that he was going to give an exhibition but it was up to the
local room to determine who his opponent would be.) Mosconi beat
Bruney, 200-3
, in the exhibition on an 8-foot Brunswick table. The
length of his unfinished run was not recorded, but he was urged to
continue. After approximately two additional hours, he reached 526 and
missed a shot. It is also not recorded what type of shot he missed on,
and recollections of various people are contradictory on this point.

At least 36 people were present at the end of the run, since they
signed a statement attesting to the run on the stationery of the East
High Billiard Club. The Billiard Archive has a copy of this document.
It is signed by, among 35 others, "Earl J. Bruney (opponent)". Howard
Barrett did not sign it. This does not mean he wasn't there, just that
he may have had his reasons for not signing.

While Barrett says in the current Pool & Billiard Magazine that
Mosconi ended his regulation game with a run of only 33, I consider it
unlikely (but not impossible) in view of the fact that Bruney only
scored 3 points. Mosconi always promised the room owner that he would
run 100 in an exhibition. If he did not run 100 on his way to a total
of 200
, and his last run was 33, he must have taken at least three
innings and probably more. That means Bruney would have had at least
two chances to shoot and we would expect him to score more than 3
points. It is more likely that Mosconi broke for Bruney, Bruney ran 3
and then Mosconi ran 200. He felt in the zone, and so was persuaded to
continue to try to break his previous record of 365, which he set in
Wilmington, NC in 1953. (This paragraph is just speculation.)

The New York Times reported the story on March 21, 1954. The BCA
recognized the run as an exhibition high run several days after it
occurred. The requirement for exhibition high runs back then was that
the run must have occurred in an announced exhibition on a table
satisfying BCA specifications and been witnessed. The reason for
requiring announcement in advance is so the public, and especially the
press, are notified and have a chance to attend. If the exhibition is
not announced, but is made known only to close friends of the player,
you can imagine that all sorts of questionable records would be
claimed. There is no category of BCA record for practice runs, since
these do not occur in a competitive situation and are usually not
witnessed. There are several stories of practice runs in the 700s.
Whether or not they occurred, they are not records.

Later in his life, Mosconi, apparently too proud to admit that he
ever missed a shot (admittedly a rare event), started telling people
that he just got tired and put his cue down, and so it is written in
his (auto)biography, "Willie's Game." But it's just not true.

Much has been made of the fact that the run of 526 was made on an
8-foot table. However, I have never seen a convincing argument that
such a run is easier on an 8-foot table than on a 9-footer. While the
shots are shorter on a smaller table, the chance of the balls getting
tied up is greater, particularly right after a break shot. There is no
question that such a run is easier on an 8 or 9-foot table than on a
10-foot table. (Straight pool high run on a 10-foot table: 309.
Amazingly, this record was set by Crane and TIED by Mosconi.)

The story surrounding Mike Eufemia's claimed run of 625 is very
complicated. The upshot is that it is not recognized by the BCA
because it did not meet the standards for an exhibition high run
record."
Mike Shamos
Chairperson, BCA Statistics and Records Committee

----------------------------------------------------------------------
My Source for the mention of the above statement by Mr. Shamos is:

http://untoldstoriesbilliardshistory.blogspot.com/2010/04/willie-mosconis-high-run.html

Arnaldo ~ Essentially Willie ran 326 more balls after his 200-ball run within the exhibition match itself.
 
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measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
According to Mike Shamos, Willie went for high runs at some point. In 1953 he had a 322 (Platteville, Wisconsin) and then a 365 (Wilmington, North Carolina). In 1954 was his 526. So it definitely wasn’t just one night in Springfield, OH.
One night in Springfield
That would be a great title for a song about the run of 526.
Any song writers here?
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Much has been made of the fact that the run of 526 was made on an
8-foot table. However, I have never seen a convincing argument that
such a run is easier on an 8-foot table than on a 9-footer. While the
shots are shorter on a smaller table, the chance of the balls getting
tied up is greater, particularly right after a break shot. There is no
question that such a run is easier on an 8 or 9-foot table than on a
10-foot table. (Straight pool high run on a 10-foot table: 309.
Amazingly, this record was set by Crane and TIED by Mosconi.)

The story surrounding Mike Eufemia's claimed run of 625 is very
complicated. The upshot is that it is not recognized by the BCA
because it did not meet the standards for an exhibition high run
record."
Mike Shamos
Chairperson, BCA Statistics and Records Committee

----------------------------------------------------------------------
My Source for the mention of the above statement by Mr. Shamos is:

http://untoldstoriesbilliardshistory.blogspot.com/2010/04/willie-mosconis-high-run.html

Arnaldo ~ Essentially Willie ran 326 more balls after his 200-ball run within the exhibition match itself.
First, thanks for the history lesson. One of my own biggest mistakes was at the 1992 US Open 14.1 Mosconi and Caras were there and sitting together on the night Sigel ran his 150. I had my camera with me and wanted to get a photo with me and the two of them. I clean forgot, and I never saw Mosconi again as he died about a year later, Talk about a missed opportunity!

Second, yes, I believe running balls is harder on the nine footer than on the eight footer. I've played my share of straight pool on both and found it harder on the nine footer. Of course, others may have had a different experience. but this is the first time I've heard anyone on AZB suggest that it's not easier on the eight footer. That said, it's definitely a matter of opinion.

Third, with regard top Eufemia's run, Mike was a good friend of my dad, and even Mike himself conceded that, as far as he knew, he himself was the only person to have witnessed the run from beginning to end, so the run couldn't be verified to the point that the record would be recognized.
 
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