760, How tight is right?

SUPERSTAR

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
Ok. This has been a debate in the pool room for quite some time now.

There are those who say that the 760 of today, is not the same, or has had some changed made to it since 20 years ago because todays 760 plays like mud compared to the old days.
And there are those didn't start playing pool till after that time, who really have no clue as to what we are talking about.
Also, that if there were no changes made to the cloth, then there must be some underlying factor that causes todays 760 to play so different from back then.

SO, assuming that no changed have been made to the cloth at all.
(something that we are having a hard time doing, seeing as it's a universal phenomena in the area) we can only assume that the guys who install the cloth are just weak, and do not put enough muscle into it, as i can physically move it with my bridge hand when playing.

So that being the case, how do you know what tight is right?

Now just to paint a picture here, i remember seeing the guy that did the billiard table (different crew altogether), looking like he was windsurfing when he was installing the cloth.
That is how far back he was leaning, when holding the cloth and stretching it out. His back being at maybe at a 40 degree angle from the floor.

That is just to point out the fact that cloth stretching, is determined by who installs it.

So what is the standard?
Till your fingers feel like they are going to break when stretching it, or just lay it there, give it a little tug, and voila.
 
I'm not in the industry, so cannot comment as an expert on the subject, but to me it seems that the problem is that there really are no standards when it comes to stretching cloth. I had a conversation a few months ago with AZ member RealKingCobra, who is an expert table mechanic and will hopefully put in his $.02 at some point, and he uses a stretching technique that actually involves measuring the amount the cloth is stretched each direction. It's a great idea, and it seems to me to be the only way to know exactly how much you're stretching the cloth, and to ensure that you are stretching cloth consistently. Unfortunately, it seems that RKC is one of the few in the field who actually do it that way.

I have seen (as most of us probably have) Simonis installed so loosely that you could push up wrinkles in the cloth with very little effort, and I have heard that some installers actually recommend this method to room owners claiming that it increases the life expectancy of the cloth. I don't know if that's true or not, but I personally cannot stand to play on cloth that isn't stretched fairly tight.

Aaron
 
As Tight As You Can Go, And Then A Little Tighter......

It's Going To Stretch Over Time, And If It's Not Tight When It Goes On, It Will Become Extremely Lose And Unplayable Very Quickly.

P.s. The New Simonis, Is Not The Same As The Old Stuff.
 
You hit the nail right on the head. There are no standards, hardly in this entire industry. Everything is "feel", from how a cloth is installed, how a cushion bounces, how a cue stick vibrates in your hand. There are no scientific measurements. And when someone does try a scientific measurement, they get cut up by the masses saying what do they know, they can't play a lick.
 
Not sure how much.............but it is definitely the installer. Search for the best.
My first table GCI was installed by Bing Toi (spelling?) 860 simonis..fastest table I had ever played on. He was a MASTER in my opinion and most Chicago players opinions as well.

Moved and bought a GCII......Bing was retired at this time so this table was installed with 860 simonis and played horribly..........cloth moved under your fingers and everything. Have had that same table done 3 more times............this last time I put on 760 and I am very pleased. The mechanic did a very good job.

The one thing I noticed Bing did that I did not see the others do was stretch and re-stretch. He would staple one side......stretch to the other and staple it down.....................then go back to the first side and pull all the staples and re-stretch it. He would only pull the staples in the area he was stretching to kinda hold it in place.

Not sure what technique is right, but his work was the best I have ever seen!!!

Mike
 
You need to stretch very tight, as tight as you can and then back it off about half an inch. You should not be able to move the cloth with a bridge hand. The 760 of old played like you were playing on ice when it first came out, IMO it is a bit slower now.
 
IMO, the 760 being made today is slower than 760 from 10 years ago. I've NEVER seen any installation that was too tight. How would you know it was too tight? I have seen a few too loose and fortunately they can be re-stretched.
 
Two weeks ago I had Steve ("TableMechanic") recover my GC IV with 760,
and I was absolutely amazed at how tight he pulled the cloth.
I figured surely it would rip, but of course it didn't.
He did a great job, and I love the way it plays. Thanks again, Steve.

I really like how the 760 plays. Lots better than the 860.
 
Well, at least it's obvious that there are people who played pool a long time ago, that agree, that something has changed.

That makes me wonder if it is something with the cloth cause every installer didn't just suddenly became weak 10 or so years ago.

That just seems absurd.

But the actual argument isn't even worth it as you have individuals who clearly understand what i am talking about, who played 20 years ago, and fully agree that todays cloth isn't the same as the old.
Then you have the people who never had that experience who only know the 760 that we have today, and to try and convince them without actually having a room that still has a roll of ancient 760 somewhere that gets used and plays like ice, is just a waste of time.

While i understand where they are coming from, having never experienced it, i know if they had the chance to play on the old stuff (which never felt as nappy as the new stuff), that they would immediately understand.

I personally don't think that one should have to crush the ball on a corner pocket shot from the bottom rail to go 3 or 4 rails around the table, and back down to the bottom rail.

On the 760 of old, you'd barely hit it.

I guess i'm gonna have to watch to see exaclty how much effort is put into the stretch the next time.

Cause if it can be stretched big time without ripping, then i'm wondering why they don't do it.
If it's all about the stretching, then i will make sure to call them a bunch of weaklings the next time i see them doing a table.:D
 
I wonder if the current install, on the table you played,causes the cloth to move a lil when you push your bridge hand into it? If so, I think the installation was bad.


Eric
 
There is also the humidity factor, any humidity above normal will loosen that cloth a ton.
 
selftaut said:
There is also the humidity factor, any humidity above normal will loosen that cloth a ton.
Click to expand...

This is the first i have ever heard of this?

I really want to ask how one would come to that conclusion, but i don't even know if an explanation is possible.

EDIT: If that is true, then it doesn't matter how tight it gets stretched cause the room itself has always had a high level of humidity.
 
Last edited:
How tight is right?

If it is a 9 foot table, how tight?

I pull it 3" sideways x 5" longways.

I also do not pull the cloth by hand.

I use a special cloth pulling device.
(trade secret)

Also, to ensure that the grain of the
cloth remains straight with the table
I draw a box outline on the cloth to
the exact dimensions that I am going
to be pulling it.

Then when I pull the cloth, I just pull
it to the line along the edge of the slate
all the way around. This makes for a
consistent, tight, and straight pull all
the way around!

:thumbup2:
 
Pool Loft Dave said:
I use a special cloth pulling device.
(trade secret)
Click to expand...

I'm not in the trade but plan to recover my own table myself. I was going to use a canvas stretcher, found in most art supply stores. Bad idea???
 
SUPERSTAR said:
This is the first i have ever heard of this?

I really want to ask how one would come to that conclusion, but i don't even know if an explanation is possible.

EDIT: If that is true, then it doesn't matter how tight it gets stretched cause the room itself has always had a high level of humidity.
Click to expand...



It is definitely true. My table has 860 and the humidity varies in my house from above 60% in the summer to sometimes below 20% in the winter. The cloth was not stretched tight enough, and it gets loose (bags) every summer and it gets tight again when the humidity goes down. Even if it is stretched tight enough so that it will not bag in the summer, it is still going to play a lot different. I am now in the process of re-doing the table, and it will be stretched tight this time.:smile:
 
yep

Both 760 and 860 are a tad diff. I stretch it really tight these days, with one hand grabbing I pull all my elbow alone can pull. Then I pull down and hold with opposite hand, and pull about an inch extra. Side stretch(from side pocket to side pocket) I feel requires that as well as lengthwise stretch. I also pinch a little extra through the featherstrip at the corner pockets to aid in wrinkle free corners that dont have to be pulled so tight the rails lean down a tad at the corner after a few weeks...

When I first learned as a puppy it took less stretching. The fibers are more coarse these days, I think the worsting strands are not as long - wool may be shorter than good ole days...
 
Look athe knuckles of the installer

If they are scarred - he is stretching it tight (as RKC would tell you). I had Glen do my table about 5 months ago (simonis HR). It is crazy tight and plays faster than any simonis I have played on. If you can get him to recover your table - he is the NUTS!
 
iusedtoberich said:
You hit the nail right on the head. There are no standards, hardly in this entire industry. Everything is "feel", from how a cloth is installed, how a cushion bounces, how a cue stick vibrates in your hand. There are no scientific measurements. And when someone does try a scientific measurement, they get cut up by the masses saying what do they know, they can't play a lick.
Click to expand...


I apologize for going off-topic, but I completely agree with iusedtoberich. I have been saying this since I picked up pool again. We should quantify a lot more about the game and the equipment. The game will only improve. Quality will go up and a lot of the BS will float away.

"Brand XX balls are the best." Maybe yes, maybe no.
"Full-splice cues are the best." Perhaps, but how do we really know? I know they are traditional, but ivory balls are "traditional" and they would be terrible to play with by today's standards. Let's see if full-splices really do perform better...

I am not attacking Brand XX balls or full-splice cues. Beauty is important, but when it comes down to it, everyone wants better-performing equipment. Performance can be quantified.
 
Last edited:
Shaft said:
I apologize for going off-topic, but I completely agree with iusedtoberich. I have been saying this since I picked up pool again. We should quantify a lot more about the game and the equipment. The game will only improve. Quality will go up and a lot of the BS will float away.

"Brand XX balls are the best." Maybe yes, maybe no.
"Full-splice cues are the best." Perhaps. Yes, I know they are traditional, but ivory balls are "traditional" and they would be terrible to play with by today's standards.

Beauty is important, but when it comes down to it, everyone wants better-performing equipment. Performance can be quantified.
Click to expand...

It will never happen.
Brand X balls plays better then brand Y, but room owner likes brand y cause it's cheaper.
Brand X cloth is far superior to brand Y, but people buy brand Y cause they don't want to spend money all the time recovering the tables.

Big new pool room opens up with SO MANY TABLES.

Problem is, all the tables suck cause the room wouldn't have as many tables if he payed for the good ones.

I repeat.
It will NEVER happen.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top