8 Ball Question

Brain71

Brain71

Railbird
Silver Member
What happens when you jump a ball and the object is pocketed and the cueball jumps off of the table? Does the object ball spot up or stay down? We have an in house league here in Columbia, S.C. and that situation has come up. The director could not find a ruling on that in any of the BCA rules or other league rulebooks. Obviously the in coming player will have ball in hand but what happens to the object ball?
 
My understanding is that the only time a ball is spotted in BCA 8 ball is if the 8 is pocketed on the break.

I believe the ball stays down.
 
I believe this to be true even if both balls or even just the object ball goes off the table..either way is the other player turn
 
References

If BCAPL rules, Rule 2-7-2.

If WSR, Rule 3.7 second sentence.

It goes down either way.

:)

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
 
Bad rule?

tatcat2000 said:
If BCAPL rules, Rule 2-7-2.

If WSR, Rule 3.7 second sentence.

It goes down either way.

:)

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
Click to expand...


I think this is a fault in the rules. If I need one ball to win a team point, all I need do is knock one of my set off the table and we win the match. Years ago, I played a nice safety on a fella who needed just one ball for his team to win, and he shot an illegal combo (hitting one of my set first). The ball stayed down and the match was over. I don't think you should ever win on a foul.

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
 
Donny Lutz said:
I think this is a fault in the rules. If I need one ball to win a team point, all I need do is knock one of my set off the table and we win the match. Years ago, I played a nice safety on a fella who needed just one ball for his team to win, and he shot an illegal combo (hitting one of my set first). The ball stayed down and the match was over. I don't think you should ever win on a foul.

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
Click to expand...


There is nothing wrong with a defensive shot.

As long as a the cue ball is stroked legally however the balls are repositioned is legal.

In a team event every game can have an effect on the outcome.

It wasn't just the creative shot that won the match, it was the cumulative outcome of all the games.
 
Last edited:
Donny Lutz said:
I think this is a fault in the rules. If I need one ball to win a team point, all I need do is knock one of my set off the table and we win the match. Years ago, I played a nice safety on a fella who needed just one ball for his team to win, and he shot an illegal combo (hitting one of my set first). The ball stayed down and the match was over. I don't think you should ever win on a foul.

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
Click to expand...


That can be fixed by adding a stipulation to the rules that an illegally pocketed ball does not count as a point, which it shouldn't imo. Also, I would almost consider the latter situation you mentioned as unsportsmanlike.
 
Donny Lutz said:
I think this is a fault in the rules.
Click to expand...

AS Baxter observed, your league has the power to fix the problem. Just mandate a modification to the rules that requires a match winning point to be scored with a legally pocketed ball. It can get a little complicated with post-shot requirements/scoring, but it's not that hard to overcome.

Calling it UC doesn't really work, by the way. While it may be sometimes, just as often it happens on the break or accidentally. To much trouble to try to establish intent and have two different procedures. Then again, if the league really wanted to provide for UC within specific league by-laws for a blatantly obvious intentional act, they could do that as well.

If you are playing BCAPL, two observations concerning the relevant rules:

First, your observation has not gone unnoticed at CSI. However, on the BCAPL league side of the house, the desire is not yet there to micro-manage scoring procedures. While there are suggested formats published by BCAPL, they are just that - suggested. There are almost as many different handicapping/scoring systems as there are leagues, and a one-size-fits-all solution in the rule book is not possible.

Second, the USAPL side of the house is a different matter, and an educated guess says that you can look for a new USAPL scoring regulation requiring the set or match winning ball to be legally pocketed effective 6/1/2012. Details for post-shot procedures are currently being evaluated.

While the second observation may not help you now, I bring it up simply to note that there will soon be precedent at CSI for the principle. So there could be a ripple or two later...

Buddy
 
Re-read?

MoonshineMattK said:
There is nothing wrong with a defensive shot.

As long as a the cue ball is stroked legally however the balls are repositioned is legal.

In a team event every game can have an effect on the outcome.

It wasn't just the creative shot that won the match, it was the cumulative outcome of all the games.
Click to expand...

Please re-read my post. The issue is not defense, it's INTENTIONALLY winning a game with a foul.
To the post that suggests it calls for BIH: Please re-read also. BIH doesn't do much good if the game is over.
The solution would be to simply change the rule to "balls pocketed illegally or knocked off the table will be spotted, AND opponent gets BIH".

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
 
Donny Lutz said:
I think this is a fault in the rules. If I need one ball to win a team point, all I need do is knock one of my set off the table and we win the match. Years ago, I played a nice safety on a fella who needed just one ball for his team to win, and he shot an illegal combo (hitting one of my set first). The ball stayed down and the match was over. I don't think you should ever win on a foul.

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
Click to expand...

How can you score points with a foul? Do you get points for potting balls instead of making the eight as last ball???? Why do you play 8-Ball then?
 
Avathar said:
How can you score points with a foul? Do you get points for potting balls instead of making the eight as last ball???? Why do you play 8-Ball then?
Click to expand...

I believe in BCA league play the player that loses the rack is credited a point for each pocketed ball in that rack.

The ball stays down and incoming player gets BIH.

:cool:
 
Donny Lutz said:
Please re-read my post. The issue is not defense, it's INTENTIONALLY winning a game with a foul.
To the post that suggests it calls for BIH: Please re-read also. BIH doesn't do much good if the game is over.
The solution would be to simply change the rule to "balls pocketed illegally or knocked off the table will be spotted, AND opponent gets BIH".

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
Click to expand...

Was anyone injured or did the player at least have the courtesy to yell "Fore"?
 
Donny Lutz said:
Please re-read my post. The issue is not defense, it's INTENTIONALLY winning a game with a foul.
To the post that suggests it calls for BIH: Please re-read also. BIH doesn't do much good if the game is over.
The solution would be to simply change the rule to "balls pocketed illegally or knocked off the table will be spotted, AND opponent gets BIH". ...
Click to expand...
For better or worse, the rules for eight ball were written for coin-op tables and so the amount of spotting is minimized. In any case, I think the problem (as mentioned above) is primarily with how the league has chosen to score points. A different way to score -- that does not involve a rule change -- is to say any ball pocketed illegally (or off the table) does not count as pocketed. That would require additional marks on the score sheet.
 
Donny Lutz said:
Please re-read my post. The issue is not defense, it's INTENTIONALLY winning a game with a foul.
To the post that suggests it calls for BIH: Please re-read also. BIH doesn't do much good if the game is over.
The solution would be to simply change the rule to "balls pocketed illegally or knocked off the table will be spotted, AND opponent gets BIH".

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
Click to expand...


We just have a difference in opinions.

That's OK.

I feel the simpler and more condensed the rules are the better they work.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.

Maybe you would be happier shooting in a scratch league where games are a win or a loss, not scored by ball count.

I don't know
 
Handicaps are OK

MoonshineMattK said:
We just have a difference in opinions.

That's OK.

I feel the simpler and more condensed the rules are the better they work.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.

Maybe you would be happier shooting in a scratch league where games are a win or a loss, not scored by ball count.

I don't know
Click to expand...

Most leagues are handicapped, and I think this is fine. I'm happy in any league with sensible rules. Still think you shouldn't win on a foul.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
 
Additional marks on score sheet?

Bob Jewett said:
For better or worse, the rules for eight ball were written for coin-op tables and so the amount of spotting is minimized. In any case, I think the problem (as mentioned above) is primarily with how the league has chosen to score points. A different way to score -- that does not involve a rule change -- is to say any ball pocketed illegally (or off the table) does not count as pocketed. That would require additional marks on the score sheet.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be more simple (as well as fair) to simply spot any balls driven from the table or pocketed illegally?
True, rules for 8-ball changed in the '60s to accomadate coin-ops, but the BCA (and others) have honed their rules over the years since to make them better. It would not be all that difficult for all the organizations to adopt the World Standardized Rules, even if not quite "perfect".
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
 
I actually had this happen to me about 10 years ago in a league tourney...frustrated the crap out of me, LOL.

The truth is, it hasnt happened since so its really not something that really needs alot of concern. also, I would imagine that MOST players would not figure out or be creative enough to do it during the match.

I personally wouldnt think to do it cause I would be very concerned about killing someone when the cue left the table...as it must in that situation.

Also, its not practical to ask people to move before you shoot, cuz your about to launch the cueball in an effort to win with a cheating foul shot!!!

Might make some enemies, LOL
 
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