8-ball vs 9-ball For TV

C

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With the IPT looming on the horizon I think it's safe to say that most pool players are wondering if pool can really blow up like poker did. There is alot of debate about whether the IPT mainly being 8-ball (or solely), if it will appeal to the masses, and whether it does or not will of course be a massive impact on how successful the tour is. I came across this article by Phil Capelle, and he compares the two games, and how they will appeal to the masses. He also did a poll on 8-ball vs 9-ball with several hundred voters, and 9 ball won decisively. The points he brought up in this article are brilliant, and I think that everyone, including Mr. Andrews and Trudeau should take all of what Capelle said into consideration.

Here is the link to the article, (I don't want to copy and paste the whole thing): http://www.billiardspress.com/perspective.html

This does not belong in the IPT section of this forum IMO, because it is about 8-ball and 9-ball and general, so please don't move this thread.
 
I have been wondering the same thing lately. I wonder when Capelle wrote that article because I think he would get a different outcome if he did it today.

I was also wondering if the local pro tours, and tours that draw pros, have been considering turning their tours into 8-ball tours.

9-ball is really not as popular as a lot of people think. Just too much luck involved. Such as breaking, running 8 balls, and hanging the 9. Even I can beat Efren if he does that. Unfortunately he would have to do it 7 times against me and he won't do that 7 times in a decade.

The Florida Pro Tour has gone to 10 ball to get away from a lot of the luck in 9-ball. Slowing down the break and runs and 9's on the break.

I really think that the demographics of pool have changed and the industry should go toward 8-ball.

When I moved here 8 years ago and took up pool there may have been 10 people in this community playing pool. Now we have over 150. APA just started a division here back then now they have quite a few divisions and plenty of players. Most play 8-ball. But don't compare APA 9-ball to regular 9-ball. They are two completely different games.

KBP is very popular here with the amatuer crowd. And they now have an 8-ball division.

Playing safe was frowned on when I moved here. Now it is the rule. Don't learn how to play safe and you lose. Period. This is a prime indication that the understanding of pool strategy has greatly increased.

In my opinion, in the past sevral years the overall level of play, and understanding of the game has really improved. Thanks, mostly to the great play by the women on TV. And the availability of lessons via videos.

So, I really think that the time to switch to 8-ball has really arrived.

Will it play on TV? Who knows? But people sure are tired of watching Allison and Karen over and over.

Jake
 
Hmmm, that is a really good article. I have professed my thinking that 8-ball should be the game for TV. Mainly because of strategy that could expounded upon by announcers and the large number of 8 ball players in the US. This article has made me think a little differently. The big thing being that 8 ball just isn't that prominent world wide.

My attitude could be completely changed if two things happened. 9 ball on the break doesn't win and after the break you have to call the 9 ball.
 
I think for casual observers, 9-ball will always be preferred. Any moron can count, and even if they can't, Allen Hopkins (or his wife Dawn) will draw a circle around the next shot. So the only decision the audience observes is whether the player will shoot the next ball, play safe, or kick. I think that is the advantage of 9-ball. It takes about as much mental dexterity to understand as tick-tack-toe. That's a very good thing for casual observers, and those are the people TV would hope to capture.

Eightball offers many more options. To the casual observer, it might be more confusing than 9-ball, and that could turn some away.

That said, however, I think 8-ball has the potential to really hook people when they begin to understand flexible patterns and see how pros solve the puzzles of breakouts and non-sequential patterns.

As for Cappelle's contention that matches should be a balance between offense and defense to be interesting, I think he's way off base. Case in point, consider that the all time best selling straight pool tape from Accustats is Mike Sigel's 150 and out against Mike Zuglan. Not much balance there, but plenty of offense--at least on Sigel's part.
 
CaptainJR said:
My attitude could be completely changed if two things happened. 9 ball on the break doesn't win and after the break you have to call the 9 ball.
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I agree with you. But I'd add that the game would be much more fair if the 9 ball would have to be THE LAST BALL MADE, just as in 8-ball. That would remove the lucky 9-on-the-break shot, and all those situations where the player is accidentally left a simple combination or kiss on the 9 ball early in the rack. It would also remove "riding the 9".

The old shoot-out rule on every shot took away the sting of accidental hooks; but of course that tends to slow the game down. Not that that would be a bad thing...:)

However as long as the erroneous perception remains that 9-ball the way it's currently played is a game of skill rather than a game of luck, then they'll keep using it as the tournament game.

Doc
 
Good article, 'saurus (you're not making it easy to give you bad rep points!). Before I got hooked on this forum, I spent a lot of time at the ESPNZONE site, where we beat up on ESPN pretty religiously. EVERY time TV pool was brought up, I saw the same results from the posters: "every time I watch, it's a repeat of one I've seen, so I quit watching". No matter what the game, 8-ball, 9-ball or musket-ball, the TV programming is going to have to be very carefully crafted to avoid this problem. We pool junkies will watch anything pool-related, but, without huge (translation:millions) prizes, reality hook, big-time celebrity participation, or other assorted bells and whistles, the standard "pool on TV show" is an underdog to catch the fancy of the average viewer (you think they're gonna switch over from "American Idol" to watch regular ol' pool?). While I'm hoping the IPT will have a positive long-term benefit for pool, I'm really skeptical that it will bring a renaissance like we saw after "The Hustler" and "TCOM".
 
Am I alone here in thinking that 8 ball is a really boring game that requires only a fraction of the skill other games do like 9 ball, straight pool, etc.?

I mean, if you're going to start a big-money tour to try and poularize pool, why not do so with a game that isn't so boring?? JMO
 
pharaoh68 said:
Am I alone here in thinking that 8 ball is a really boring game that requires only a fraction of the skill other games do like 9 ball, straight pool, etc.?

I mean, if you're going to start a big-money tour to try and poularize pool, why not do so with a game that isn't so boring?? JMO
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I don't know if you're alone thinking that 8ball is boring, but I think you're fairly alone with your statement that it "requires only a fraction of the skill" of other games. You obviously haven't seen 8ball played at the highest level.

When I was at the IPT qualifier in boston, I had my first REAL dose of world class level 8ball...and boy was it so much more exciting to watch than 9ball! It's fun to actually think along with the players and decide what ball to hit next, which path he'll choose, or exactly how he'll break up that cluster.

In 9ball, you know exactly what ball he'll shoot next, and it's almost always clear what is the proper CB path to take for the next ball. Not much thinking going on when watching 9ball...all you watch is execution.

So I'm totally in favor of 8ball over 9ball on TV. To the average joe, however, i think it's easier to get hooked on 9ball, since it's more straightforward and fast-paced. However, I think watching 9ball can get old real fast.
 
jsp said:
I don't know if you're alone thinking that 8ball is boring, but I think you're fairly alone with your statement that it "requires only a fraction of the skill" of other games. You obviously haven't seen 8ball played at the highest level.

When I was at the IPT qualifier in boston, I had my first REAL dose of world class level 8ball...and boy was it so much more exciting to watch than 9ball! It's fun to actually think along with the players and decide what ball to hit next, which path he'll choose, or exactly how he'll break up that cluster.

In 9ball, you know exactly what ball he'll shoot next, and it's almost always clear what is the proper CB path to take for the next ball. Not much thinking going on when watching 9ball...all you watch is execution.

So I'm totally in favor of 8ball over 9ball on TV. To the average joe, however, i think it's easier to get hooked on 9ball, since it's more straightforward and fast-paced. However, I think watching 9ball can get old real fast.
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The fundamental difference between the two is that in 9 ball, you DO know what ball you have to shoot next and the skill or challenge is trying to get the cue ball to pocket an object ball and get optimal position to shoot that next ball.

With 8 ball, you try to do the same thing, but if you make a mistake, you have several other shots to bail you out. Not so with 9 ball/10 ball. You screw yourself here and you HAVE to find a way around it. You can't just pick a different ball to shoot at.

I've watched Efren and Mika and others play 8 ball at the highest level. And I've watched them run out practically every time they step to the table. You have a big enough break and you can spread a table wide open. Once you do this, running out is easy for these guys and I've seen them do it quite a bit.
 
jsp said:
It's fun to actually think along with the players and decide what ball to hit next, which path he'll choose, or exactly how he'll break up that cluster.

In 9ball, you know exactly what ball he'll shoot next, and it's almost always clear what is the proper CB path to take for the next ball. Not much thinking going on when watching 9ball...all you watch is execution.
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I totally agree. Also, 8-ball gives the "expert commentator(s)" (whatever pro(s) or former pro(s) they put in the booth) something to SAY.

Allen Hopkins was/is a GREAT 9-ball player, but he has nothing to talk about when commentating 9-ball on ESPN. "I think he'll use low left english to come back to the middle of the table for the 5 ball" is about all he can say, and if you're not a pool player, you don't know and likely don't care why or how such english is used.

8-ball commentary, on the other hand, could really give an interesting insight into what pro players are thinking when they're at the table. If he could say "a lot of beginner-level players would shoot the two and then shoot the 4-6 combo, but a smarter play is to play for the 4-6 first, since it's hard to use the 4 in a combo and guarantee that you'll have a shot on it for the next shot. So he'll shoot the 4-6 and have the 2 right there to shoot, and get position for the 4 after that," that's something interesting that a lot of casual players wouldn't have thought about, and something that shows how much knowledge and expertise top-level players have, beyond the clearly visible shot-making ability.

People watching football love to analyze and criticize the play-calling. Let the same audience start to learn to analyze and criticize the shot selections, and you've created a real way for a non-player or casual player to get interested in the game. Hell, terrible pool players already stand next to bar tables yapping about what the shooter should do next in an 8-ball game. It's got established appeal!

-Andrew
 
I think Capelle's runout percentages may be deceiving.

He compares the runout percentage of hundreds of 9-ball matches from many pros to the runout percentages of one 8 ball tournament featuring Roger Griffis, Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen, Francisco Bustamante, Troy Frank, and Efren Reyes.

I would guess their runout percentages in 9 ball are probably higher than the average Capelle cites. He should really use a larger pool of 8-ball games for a meaningful comparison.

I also don't think straight pool fell out of TV favor because it was too much offense, but because it's too long and one player holds the table for too long. Also, straight pool played by pros rarely has any amazing shots. To an uneducated viewer, every shot looks easy.
 
Who were the "voters"? Serious pool players?

Well for TV, I think it is the "masses" which count. What do they want should be the question?

Around here, the better pool players say they prefer to play 9-ball and prefer to watch 9-ball on TV. However most "people" - which means casual bar pool players, bangers, etc. prefer to play 8-ball and say they hate 9-ball.

I would suspect these people (the masses) would also prefer to watch 8-ball on TV as well. It is the game they play at their local bar.

The thing is ratings, ratings, ratings! What will get the highest ratings? And along with high ratings comes advertising dollars. Then more prize money for tournaments will follow.

Snooker is *very* big in Europe on TV. Why? What elements does snooker have which gets the masses watching? What are they doing right and what are we doing wrong?

Are we being selfish? - playing the game (9-ball) which the players prefer, yet the masses do not prefer... Yet in the same breath pool players say they want more prize money.

You need to give to receive - It will better dollar wise to have a game on TV which will draw the masses and this may not necessarily be a game which the pool players prefer. It may even need elements of wrestling or something else to get the high ratings. May turn your stomach, but this is reality.
 
It's a good article, but there are some major holes in it. For one, it assumes that understanding strategy and knowing what the pros will do makes for an entertaining venue, when the opposite is true. In most sports it's when plays that you wouldn't expect or necesarily know about are done and either succeed or terribly fail that the most interest is generated....

Another thing that is mentioned is ONCE they understand the rules of nineball they would understand it better. The goal is to get people interested in watching pool that haven't been interested in the past....

Most bangers who they are trying to attract or people who haven't EVER played pool want to watch something they can relate to, and there are a lot more people out there that will relate to eightball, (many people just think it's called pool, and when referred to as eightball don't know what you're talking about), and will be able to explain at least the basic rules to the uninitiated....

Don't think for a second that all of these premises haven't been calculated by those running the IPT...

The basic truth is, that if you can't relate to something, you don't want to watch it or have anything to do with it.. Something about it has to GAIN your interest. I think that eightball and the differences in style and choice that world class players of eightball brings, may very well be able to do that....
 
pharaoh68 said:
Am I alone here in thinking that 8 ball is a really boring game that requires only a fraction of the skill other games do like 9 ball, straight pool, etc.?

I mean, if you're going to start a big-money tour to try and poularize pool, why not do so with a game that isn't so boring?? JMO
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You might not be the only one that thinks this, but you're wrong. 9 ball is a much easier game than 8-ball. I happen to find a lot of 9 ball on tv boring.

Bring on the 8.
 
supergreenman said:
You might not be the only one that thinks this, but you're wrong. 9 ball is a much easier game than 8-ball. I happen to find a lot of 9 ball on tv boring.

Bring on the 8.
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Tap tap tap
 
Someone please explain to me how 8 ball is harder because I have yet to see how this is. I have watched a lot of top level pros play 8 ball and, most of the times, if they make a ball on the break, they are out. There is no challenge for them because, if they manage to get bad position, they can simply hit a diffeent ball! In 9 ball, if you get out of line, you had better find a way to correct or reconcile your mistake otherwise your mistake could cost you the game.

Essentially, the difference is this: 9 ball appears easy because if you make a mistake, your opponent can run out. But 8 ball is much easier because if you make a mistake, you can just pick another ball to shoot at, ie~ ITS HARDER TO MAKE A MISTAKE!!!
 
tedkaufman said:
...As for Cappelle's contention that matches should be a balance between offense and defense to be interesting, I think he's way off base. Case in point, consider that the all time best selling straight pool tape from Accustats is Mike Sigel's 150 and out against Mike Zuglan. Not much balance there, but plenty of offense--at least on Sigel's part.
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Ahh, but that's so popular because it is a relatively rare thing to see, especially given the lmimited number of Pro Straigh Pool matches that have ever been video taped. If Pro 8 Ball is going to produce matches that feature regular 5+ packs being run it will not have the same appeal, because it is happening so regularly.

The TV coverage is also another key here - Modern 9 Ball is the way it is because it has been molded to produce a format TV programmers and producers believe is more attractive than other games, and that can be packaged for an hour-long time slot. Deno was talking on the IPT forum about how the average match duration in the qualifiers on tight tables was over 2.5 hours long. That's never going to fit into ESPN's schedule, and I can't seen it being shown on any other major network either. The only way I can see this working is on a small specilized cable channel like the Golf Channel.
 
there is a very important problem with capelles survey. What is the sample of people he is using. First of all 596 is not a sufficient sample to prove anything. Second the people that take the survey are those who go on his site. The people who go on the site are pool fans who know about pool. There is a significant possibility that their opinion is based on what they want to see on tv. This is not indicative of what the general public would watch.
 
I have a few problems with Capelles arguments. In the category, which is the easiest game to understand, he believes 9 ball wins out. The reason is that anyone can count and they will know that the 2 comes after the 1 and 3 after the 2 etc and the average viewer would not understand the strategy of 8 ball. However he does admit that the average player dabbles in 8 ball.
Someone does not necessarily need to understand all the facets of the game in order to enjoy it. The commentators purpose is to help the viewer understand the patterns and rules that they are not familiar with. The viewer is well aware of the most important rules of the game (ie. An early 8 means a loss unless on the break, stripes and solids, called shots etc.). But how many people tune into pool see a diamond shaped rack and think “what the hell is this? This isn’t pool”.

The vast majority of my friend have never played 9 ball, seen it, or even heard of it. If they were to watch pool on t.v. it would have to be 8 ball. They know what is going on. They may not be aware of the pattern that will be played but they will be able to pick it up with in the first rack. More importantly they are more likely to stick around to watch it. Furthermore there is not a rule in all of sports that has confounded non-pool savants like that push out rule. It seems to defy all logic.

In regards to his portion on history, all I have to say is things change. Just because one thing has been the norm it doesn’t mean it will always be. I agree history plays a large part in a sport however the interesting thing about pool is all of the different games that are played and the champions.

As for picture quality, since when has it been difficult to tell the difference between a stripe and a solid?

A Balance Between Offence and Defence: I can’t make much of a comment on this because I have limited experience with pro 8 ball. I have seen the Accu Stats pro 8 ball tournament however unlike some people I don’t believe one tournament of the best players in the world today, is an accurate sample in order to ascertain exactly how a pro 8 ball match typically goes.

Finally Graduates from 8 ball leagues. People graduate to 9 ball because they are told by more seasoned players that it is the pro game and the one that you have to play if you are serious and/or it is also shown on tv. I see this as being more of peer pressure than anything. If 8 ball is so easy why are there not more amateurs running 8-10 racks? Where I live most people play 9 ball and nothing else. They feel all of the other games are far too easy. But lets keep in mind, by in large most of these guys can count their run outs on one hand.

I just don’t think that Capelle’s study and survey offer compelling arguments. In fact I found them to be very weak.
 
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