9-ball, 10-ball and shot calling...

[Push&Pool]

Well, I'd like to know if there's any specific reason that 9-ball is mainly played with no shot calling, while 10-ball is usually call-shot? Also, if people felt there's too much luck involved in 9-ball matches, why did they switch to 10-ball (created a new game just to make it call-shot) instead of converting 9-ball into a call-shot game in major competitions?

 

[Allen Brown]

I've often wondered this myself. Good question and the responses might be interesting. Keep asking questions.

 

[Straightpool_99]

.................

 

[duckie]

Why not just play 14.1 where the opening break is not such a big factor. I've never seen a straight pool game start with smacking the shit out of the rack, why cause it's call ball and call pocket.

 

[Push&Pool]

Mainly the 10 ball rack acts less predictably during the break which makes it harder to get predictable layouts with soft breaks. Also the extra ball adds greatly to the difficulty of running out.

Edit: didn't want the angry face. Stupid ipad.

Thanks so break is the main factor which improved in 10-ball...

 

[RedEyeJedi]

Call pocket doesn't really mean a lot when you're shooting into a pocket that's usually less than 3 feet away.

It's also a lot easier to play position when it's position on ANY ball and those balls are usually no more than 3 feet away from the current OB.

Straight pool is highly overrated. There's a huge psychological overhang for some older pool players who were infected by Willie Mosconi's self-serving pitch. He was just as much the self-promoter that he accused Minnesota Fats of being.

I'm in profound disagreement with this sentiment, as I know how difficult and unforgiving 14.1 is when "playing position on ANY ball" becomes playing perfect patterns on the final 6 balls, even if you're moving the cue ball just a foot or a few inches every time. A little too far and now you're going two or three rails to the center of the table, and things can go wrong for you quick. It would be easy if you didn't have to set up for a break ball.

The shots themselves are not hard taken alone, and true I cannot remember many times when call-shot became much of an issue, as shots seem obvious when you're playing the game correctly. In the context of a hundred shots, however, each building tension upon the last shot... well, I miss from time to time in every game, but never in such baffling ways as when I twitch and really goof up a 3-foot shot in 14.1. And it is always due to the pressure of my run, something I never experience in 8-ball, 9-ball, or 10-ball, unless I'm on a tear putting together a great package.

I don't see what's overrated about it? It's a great game that pays dividends to those with commitment to it. Maybe we players that love it do overrate its greatness from time to time, but it's our game, give us a break. :thumbup:

On topic, I don't see much changing in 9 ball with a call-shot rule. Opinion: Those flukes might happen most often on banks and shots where you slam the OB, basically because of the 'way' the player shoots them. If it was called shot, players would just shoot them differently, and the player controlling the broken break would still win. Echoing others in this thread, it's the break that makes 10 ball that much different and more challenging.

 

[Push&Pool]

I'm in profound disagreement with this sentiment, as I know how difficult and unforgiving 14.1 is when "playing position on ANY ball" becomes playing perfect patterns on the final 6 balls, even if you're moving the cue ball just a foot or a few inches every time. A little too far and now you're going two or three rails to the center of the table, and things can go wrong for you quick. It would be easy if you didn't have to set up for a break ball.

The shots themselves are not hard taken alone, and true I cannot remember many times when call-shot became much of an issue, as shots seem obvious when you're playing the game correctly. In the context of a hundred shots, however, each building tension upon the last shot... well, I miss from time to time in every game, but never in such baffling ways as when I twitch and really goof up a 3-foot shot in 14.1. And it is always due to the pressure of my run, something I never experience in 8-ball, 9-ball, or 10-ball, unless I'm on a tear putting together a great package.

I don't see what's overrated about it? It's a great game that pays dividends to those with commitment to it. Maybe we players that love it do overrate its greatness from time to time, but it's our game, give us a break. :thumbup:

On topic, I don't see much changing in 9 ball with a call-shot rule. Opinion: Those flukes might happen most often on banks and shots where you slam the OB, basically because of the 'way' the player shoots them. If it was called shot, players would just shoot them differently, and the player controlling the broken break would still win. Echoing others in this thread, it's the break that makes 10 ball that much different and more challenging.

Then why don't we change racking and breaking rules for 9-ball? I mean, not change the game entirely, but simply make a new variant which could be used in certain competitions where the majority of players would want it. We would still have the old classic 9-ball for everybody who likes it, but there would be this new game as well. Now, I won't debate if that hypothetical new 9-ball should primarily be call-shot or not as I have no clue what would make it better.

 

[Pushout]

You've got the concept wrong. The rack isn't smacked in 14.1 because it's ANY ball, ANY pocket for your opponent if you miss.

Call pocket doesn't really mean a lot when you're shooting into a pocket that's usually less than 3 feet away.

It's also a lot easier to play position when it's position on ANY ball and those balls are usually no more than 3 feet away from the current OB.

Straight pool is highly overrated. There's a huge psychological overhang for some older pool players who were infected by Willie Mosconi's self-serving pitch. He was just as much the self-promoter that he accused Minnesota Fats of being.

And, you can run HOW MANY??

 

[Pushout]

You've got the concept wrong. The rack isn't smacked in 14.1 because it's ANY ball, ANY pocket for your opponent if you miss.

Call pocket doesn't really mean a lot when you're shooting into a pocket that's usually less than 3 feet away.

It's also a lot easier to play position when it's position on ANY ball and those balls are usually no more than 3 feet away from the current OB.

Straight pool is highly overrated.

My challenge to bar table 8 ball players who think this way is to rack all 15 balls, break from the head string like in 8 ball, then take ball in hand and show me how many they can run. Offer a twenty dollar bill for a run of 16, even 15. Very, very seldom will anyone get to 10 and I've never had to pay. Straight Pool is an extremely subtle game and it's a lot more than just shooting short shots. It's a lot harder when your opponent has played you safe and left you on the gum at the head of the table.
As for 10 ball call shot, make all shots except the break a called shot or a safe. On a legal safe the opponent accepts the balls as they lie. On a missed called shot the opponent can make you shoot again, very possibly giving up ball in hand. Or, the opponent gets ball in hand on a missed called shot. Or, as Wimpy used to play it, you lose half the bet if you miss. This does do away with the so-called two-way-shot, most of the time you don't know if someone actually played the shot that way or just plain missed. I had to put up with that nonsense for years because people tried shots they weren't capable of making. Then somebody got the idea of calling it a skill shot

 

[Standbykid]

You've got the concept wrong. The rack isn't smacked in 14.1 because it's ANY ball, ANY pocket for your opponent if you miss.

Call pocket doesn't really mean a lot when you're shooting into a pocket that's usually less than 3 feet away.

It's also a lot easier to play position when it's position on ANY ball and those balls are usually no more than 3 feet away from the current OB.

Straight pool is highly overrated. There's a huge psychological overhang for some older pool players who were infected by Willie Mosconi's self-serving pitch. He was just as much the self-promoter that he accused Minnesota Fats of being.

I disagree. Even top pros like Johnny Archer say that 14.1 is the toughest game around and they use it for practice due to the difficulty of the game.

If it's a psychological overhang for older pool players, then it's an overhang for us young ones too. I suck at 14.1 and love every minute of it.

BTW, if I could run 526 in straights, I'd be the most self serving S.O.B. in the world

-Jeremy

 

[Donny Lutz]

I'm in profound disagreement with this sentiment, as I know how difficult and unforgiving 14.1 is when "playing position on ANY ball" becomes playing perfect patterns on the final 6 balls, even if you're moving the cue ball just a foot or a few inches every time. A little too far and now you're going two or three rails to the center of the table, and things can go wrong for you quick. It would be easy if you didn't have to set up for a break ball.

The shots themselves are not hard taken alone, and true I cannot remember many times when call-shot became much of an issue, as shots seem obvious when you're playing the game correctly. In the context of a hundred shots, however, each building tension upon the last shot... well, I miss from time to time in every game, but never in such baffling ways as when I twitch and really goof up a 3-foot shot in 14.1. And it is always due to the pressure of my run, something I never experience in 8-ball, 9-ball, or 10-ball, unless I'm on a tear putting together a great package.

I don't see what's overrated about it? It's a great game that pays dividends to those with commitment to it. Maybe we players that love it do overrate its greatness from time to time, but it's our game, give us a break. :thumbup:

On topic, I don't see much changing in 9 ball with a call-shot rule. Opinion: Those flukes might happen most often on banks and shots where you slam the OB, basically because of the 'way' the player shoots them. If it was called shot, players would just shoot them differently, and the player controlling the broken break would still win. Echoing others in this thread, it's the break that makes 10 ball that much different and more challenging.

I totally agree with your comments on straight pool.

I do disagree a bit on the call 9-ball issue. I know that pros don't slop many balls, but to lose a match on a slop shot is sad, no matter how rare. Maybe the best 9-ball match I ever played was a race to 7 that went to hill-hill with twelve table runs. In game thirteen, my opponent crapped the eight and then the nine. Very disappointing to the spectators and to me, as you might guess.

I've heard some say that 9-ball has always been "slop", but the first 9-ball games I saw between strong players in the '50s, was "call" pocket.

I agree with Buddy Hall...9-ball should be call, except perhaps at the beginner level.

 

[sfleinen]

My challenge to bar table 8 ball players who think this way is to rack all 15 balls, break from the head string like in 8 ball, then take ball in hand and show me how many they can run. Offer a twenty dollar bill for a run of 16, even 15. Very, very seldom will anyone get to 10 and I've never had to pay. Straight Pool is an extremely subtle game and it's a lot more than just shooting short shots. It's a lot harder when your opponent has played you safe and left you on the gum at the head of the table.
As for 10 ball call shot, make all shots except the break a called shot or a safe. On a legal safe the opponent accepts the balls as they lie. On a missed called shot the opponent can make you shoot again, very possibly giving up ball in hand. Or, the opponent gets ball in hand on a missed called shot. Or, as Wimpy used to play it, you lose half the bet if you miss. This does do away with the so-called two-way-shot, most of the time you don't know if someone actually played the shot that way or just plain missed. I had to put up with that nonsense for years because people tried shots they weren't capable of making. Then somebody got the idea of calling it a skill shot

Pushout:

A fine post. Those that post about 14.1 the way Bob Dixon does, don't know straight pool at all (they haven't played it). They may've watched a few matches, then think, "oh, you mean you can shoot at 'ANY' ball at 'ANY' pocket? Are you kidding me? How can you NOT run 100s in that game?" These are the short-rack rotation fanatics that think this way, that've never played the game to any lengthy degree.

Also, the original poster -- Push&Pool -- has no idea what we're talking about when we talk about 14.1 / straight pool. In many areas, when you use the phrase "straight pool," they think you're talking about 8-ball. <sigh>

And, to Push&Pool, do not mix 9-ball and 10-ball as if they are the same game played by the same rules. They are not. 10-ball, as a game, was resurrected (it was a very old game) for the precise purposes of addressing the pro's expressed issues with the game of 9-ball -- i.e. the diamond-shaped rack that is vulnerable to wired balls on the break (the wing balls to the corners and the 1-ball to the side pocket), soft-breaking, as well as slop that often determines the outcome of matches. Yen Makabenta wrote about this in his article.

-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The trend to 10 Ball at the pro level reflects they're desire to get rid of the rack/break issues with 9 Ball and to eliminate some of the luck. That is also why the ABP would prefer to do away with the two-way shot. Well, to be fair, they don't specifically want to do away with the 2 way, but really get rid of the inadvertent "oops" safety where you miss and leave your opponent hooked by accident, which effectively eliminates the 2 way.

As Sean said, they are different games. Personally, I like it that way and wish everyone would just leave it alone rather than trying to turn 10 Ball into 9 Ball without the rack issues.

 

[FranCrimi]

Well, I'd like to know if there's any specific reason that 9-ball is mainly played with no shot calling, while 10-ball is usually call-shot? Also, if people felt there's too much luck involved in 9-ball matches, why did they switch to 10-ball (created a new game just to make it call-shot) instead of converting 9-ball into a call-shot game in major competitions?

10 Ball used to be the exact same game as 9 Ball. The only difference was the extra ball and the different rack.

Players started to gravitate more towards 10 ball due to the racking situation. 9 Ball was about to become obsolete. We had to ask the question of whether or not we wanted 9 Ball to become obsolete. That would mean the end of the 9 Ball World Championship, or U.S. Open, and a large number of other international 9 Ball events where players were able to compete for substantial prize money.

So player reps from around the world and the WPA got together and TOGETHER they created a new 10 Ball game which would open the door for new 10 Ball tournaments and more pay days for players as well as keep the current 9 ball championships in place.

Some people may not like this but it worked. There are now both 9 Ball and 10 Ball events and more money for players to earn whereas if both games had the same rules, one would eventually be overrun by the other, and the group that would suffer the most would be the players.

Regarding specifics of 9-Ball -- It is a rotation game. There are a multitude of possibilities in rotation games that involve two-way shots. That is one of the most exciting aspects of rotation games. While that aspect has been taken away for 10 Ball, it is still very much alive for 9 Ball. The better the player, the less that luck is a factor and the more interesting 9 Ball becomes with the two-way possibilities.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Well as far as I know about every variation of racking, breaking and call shot rules have happened at various tourneys for nine ball. This list includes.

break from the box
9 on the spot
one ball on the spot
alternate break
call 9 only
Must have at X number of balls pass a portion of the table to eliminate soft breaks.
Pauls no conflict break rules

I am sure there are others. All of them were designed to eliminate the fact that the 9 ball rack is goofy, and lends to wing balls made, or the one in the side. As far as I know the only solution found is to play 10 ball (if you like rotation).

Then why don't we change racking and breaking rules for 9-ball? I mean, not change the game entirely, but simply make a new variant which could be used in certain competitions where the majority of players would want it. We would still have the old classic 9-ball for everybody who likes it, but there would be this new game as well. Now, I won't debate if that hypothetical new 9-ball should primarily be call-shot or not as I have no clue what would make it better.

 

[gerard soriano]

And, you can run HOW MANY??

That is my ? also . If the posters who think 14.1 is easy and can run a 100 every day then they are correct Straight pool is easy. Easy to play Bad

 

[ctyhntr]

Luck is an integral part of all gambling games, and 9-ball started out as a gambling game. Willie Mosconi won his titles by playing straight pool. I read from R.A Dyer, Mosconi hated to be compared to Minnesota Fats and considered 9-ball a gimmick game . 9-Ball with Texas Express rules was chosen to showcase pool on TV. If you want a game of skill, return to straight pool.

Nine-ball is rotation pool, the balls are pocketed in numbered order. The only ball that means anything, that wins it, is the 9. Now, the player can shoot eight trick shots in a row, blow the 9, and lose. On the other hand, the player can get the 9 in on the break, if the balls spread right, and win. Which is to say, that luck plays a part in nine-ball. But for some players, luck itself is an art. -Martin Scorsese, The Color of Money

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Well as far as I know about every variation of racking, breaking and call shot rules have happened at various tourneys for nine ball. This list includes.

break from the box
9 on the spot
one ball on the spot
alternate break
call 9 only
Must have at X number of balls pass a portion of the table to eliminate soft breaks.
Pauls no conflict break rules

I am sure there are others. All of them were designed to eliminate the fact that the 9 ball rack is goofy, and lends to wing balls made, or the one in the side. As far as I know the only solution found is to play 10 ball (if you like rotation).

Yep, like :

9 doesn't count if it goes in the bottom two corners.

2 ball must be racked in the back.

CB must be within 2 inches of the head spot (i.e. for this year's Mosconi Cup).

And still the rack is an issue.

 

[gerard soriano]

You've got the concept wrong. The rack isn't smacked in 14.1 because it's ANY ball, ANY pocket for your opponent if you miss.

Call pocket doesn't really mean a lot when you're shooting into a pocket that's usually less than 3 feet away.

It's also a lot easier to play position when it's position on ANY ball and those balls are usually no more than 3 feet away from the current OB.

Straight pool is highly overrated. There's a huge psychological overhang for some older pool players who were infected by Willie Mosconi's self-serving pitch. He was just as much the self-promoter that he accused Minnesota Fats of being.

(It's also a lot easier to play position when it's position on ANY ball and those balls are usually no more than 3 feet away from the current OB.

Straight pool is highly overrated. )


Seems someone thinks straight pool is easy!

 

[bountybuddy]

I lean toward 10 ball before 9 ball because of the no slop of 10 ball. Last night I lost a few bucks betting on a 9 ball match, race to two. The winner sloped in a 5 ball and ran out and then sloped in a bank shot and ran out. Had they been playing 10 ball the outcome may have been very different. In the future I will only bet on no slop 10 ball games, 14.1, 9 ball bank pool or one pocket. All of these games are pool players games, not banger games. My 2 cents worth. Shoot well my friends.