9 ball rule question

[tatcat2000]

So let's say that you are moving a ball around with ball in hand,and are using the stick/ferrule to position it. Many people do that. You push it with your tip accidently instead of the side of the shaft/ferrule, nothing else gets hit, no rail, no other ball. Is that now a "shot" and you fouled? Or does the "shot" start when you get in stance and start the stoke (like the rule in baseball where you check your swing and it's not a strike till you break the plane).

Under both WSR and BCAPL rules, the test to be applied is: is it a forward motion of the cue that would normally be considered a shot?

Put another way - would you consider it a shot at any other time? If so, then the game has begun, because, for the purposes of this rule, and as Bob observed earlier, there is no difference between a break shot and any other shot!!

While some rule sets (APA and maybe others), apply a different standard to break shots than other shots, WSR and BCAPL do not. For the purposes of determining a foul, once a stroke is taken, it's just another shot.

Now - before a stroke has been taken on a break shot, or any other shot when you have BIH, you may do virtually anything you want with any part of your hand, cue or cue tip, and it will be legal provided it is not a forward-stroke motion with contact with the tip. The instant that happens, it becomes a shot and subject to all the normal rules of the game reagrding fouls.

So while you have BIH, yes you may use your cue tip to adjust the position of the ball - again, as long as it is not a forward stroke motion. The actual part of the tip used is not relevant.

Stance, body position, establishment of a bridge, etc., are all irrelevant.

Buddy

 

[catpool9]

Let's say a breaker miss cued on the break and before the ball hit anything, he raked the ball to the rail to avoid disturbing the rack. Per the rules, it's a foul of course and next guy has ball in hand. Anything else?

A link to a rule, etc would be great.

Thanks, Jed

It maybe a foul, but if you call it your a NIT!


David Harcrow

 

[au2ag]

It maybe a foul, but if you call it your a NIT!


David Harcrow

Agreed. Unfortunately this can't be proven, but if you can catch the cue in time to stop it before it hits the rack, four balls weren't hitting a rail anyway. You would not be enforcing a foul if you called it, but creating one.

(Could be proven if you could clock break speed necessary for four balls to be driven to the rail and then try to catch it at that speed, but then again, each rack is different. No real constant to the experiment).

 

[Bob Jewett]

(Miscuing on the break and deflecting the cue ball to the cushion to keep it from hitting anything) maybe a foul, but if you call it your a NIT!


David Harcrow

I have a different take on this. I think it's better to know the rules and play by the rules.

 

[Mikjary]

It maybe a foul, but if you call it your a NIT!


David Harcrow

Tap, Tap, Tap!

Best,
Mike

 

[Maniac]

I have a different take on this. I think it's better to know the rules and play by the rules.

Me too, and my post #11 explains exactly why a foul needs to be called on someone stopping a moving cueball on a miscued break attempt.

To David and Mike: How would you like to be hill-hill in a match (tourney or gambling) where the 8-ball or 9-ball on-the-snap counts as a win and your opponent tries to break but miscues, rakes the slow rolling cue ball over to the side rail, lines the shot up again and makes the 8 or the 9 on-the-snap (or breaks-and-runs out for that matter)? Now, if the miscued ball would have been left alone and caromed slowly off of the rack and into the corner pocket, it would now be YOUR break with a chance of winning the set and money, instead of your opponent. Under these circumstances do you still feel like you would be a nit for calling the foul, even though it is well within your right to do so? If so, then you must absolutely HATE your money :thumbup:!!!

Maniac

 

[au2ag]

Me too, and my post #11 explains exactly why a foul needs to be called on someone stopping a moving cueball on a miscued break attempt.

To David and Mike: How would you like to be hill-hill in a match (tourney or gambling) where the 8-ball or 9-ball on-the-snap counts as a win and your opponent tries to break but miscues, rakes the slow rolling cue ball over to the side rail, lines the shot up again and makes the 8 or the 9 on-the-snap (or breaks-and-runs out for that matter)? Now, if the miscued ball would have been left alone and caromed slowly off of the rack and into the corner pocket, it would now be YOUR break with a chance of winning the set and money, instead of your opponent. Under these circumstances do you still feel like you would be a nit for calling the foul, even though it is well within your right to do so? If so, then you must absolutely HATE your money :thumbup:!!!

Maniac

Like I said, if the breaker was able to catch the miscue, it was not hit hard enough to be a legal break and they would get to break again anyway. Making the nine or eight would suck, but would have happened anyway as it still would have been their break. Please tell me where i am wrong. I don't want to think that you are all NIT whiners without just cause.

 

[tatcat2000]

Like I said, if the breaker was able to catch the miscue, it was not hit hard enough to be a legal break and they would get to break again anyway. Please tell me where i am wrong.

You are wrong in that, under both WSR and BCAPL, they would not necessarily get to break again. The offended player has the option to take the break after an illegal break in 8-Ball, and in 9/10-Ball it is no longer a break shot, because an illegal break is a BIH foul.

Buddy

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Please tell me where i am wrong. ...

The rules say the situation should be handled other than the way you want to handle it. I think it's a bad idea to start ignoring the rules in a competitive situation.

 

[au2ag]

You are wrong in that, under both WSR and BCAPL, they would not necessarily get to break again. The offended player has the option to take the break after an illegal break in 8-Ball, and in 9/10-Ball it is no longer a break shot, because an illgal break is a BIH foul.

Buddy

Thanks buddy. I went back and reread this thread and realized that my minimal APA experience does not make me an authority. Go figure... Hehe. It just sounded like there were a lot of "well, rules are rules!" arguments out there without thinking about the context of the situation. THAT is how many bad things in history have become prevailing doctrine.

 

[tatcat2000]

Thanks buddy. I went back and reread this thread and realized that my minimal APA experience does not make me an authority. Go figure... Hehe. It just sounded like there were a lot of "well, rules are rules!" arguments out there without thinking about the context of the situation. THAT is how many bad things in history have become prevailing doctrine.

Thanks. I didn't mean to sound snippy. It is a valid observation that if, for whatever reason, two gamblers (or anyone else) decided to play by APA rules, then your earlier observation could be correct....(I guess...I don't really know APA rules for squat...)

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Don't stay "stuck on stupid". Get a rule book and study it.

 

[Avathar]

well BiH after such a scratch usually is "rewarded" by just slow rolling the white with a bit of english behind the rack, without moving too many balls and go for the three foul rule...


Additionally the player that stopped the ball would get warned that if he does the same thing again, it is unsportsman like behaviour and will be follwed by the rules for this kind of thing....

 

[JoseV]

Let's say a breaker miss cued on the break and before the ball hit anything, he raked the ball to the rail to avoid disturbing the rack. Per the rules, it's a foul of course and next guy has ball in hand. Anything else?

A link to a rule, etc would be great.

Thanks, Jed

This all depends on what type of game there are playing, I think Texas express rules just say its a foul and the breaker just breaks again on one foul, Im not sure how APA BCA and all other systems say about this rule.

 

[Maniac]

This all depends on what type of game there are playing, I think Texas express rules just say its a foul and the breaker just breaks again on one foul, Im not sure how APA BCA and all other systems say about this rule.

It was in my APA league area by-laws that stopping a moving cue ball at any point after the lag (or coin flip) is considered a BIH foul, even on the break. It stated that a foul on the break shot where the result was NOT a legal break, the break goes over to the opponent.

This should be a rule in the APA National Rulebook as far as I'm concerned. Any rulebook really.

Stopping a miscued cueball on a break shot falls into the same category as a player sticking his big mitts down into a pocket that he thinks he's about to scratch into. And....we all know how popular that move is here on AZB, eh???

Maniac (has pet peeves, obviously :embarrassed2

 

[catpool9]

I have a different take on this. I think it's better to know the rules and play by the rules.

Well to me it just like calling the 8 ball, if it's straight in and I know where your playing it and you don't call it and play the shot and make it.....

I'm not going to be nitty and call foul you lost, I'm just going to be a man and rack um up!...but thats just me.:smile:


We all know the rules, but sometimes it's just not right!



David Harcrow

 

[catpool9]

Me too, and my post #11 explains exactly why a foul needs to be called on someone stopping a moving cueball on a miscued break attempt.

To David and Mike: How would you like to be hill-hill in a match (tourney or gambling) where the 8-ball or 9-ball on-the-snap counts as a win and your opponent tries to break but miscues, rakes the slow rolling cue ball over to the side rail, lines the shot up again and makes the 8 or the 9 on-the-snap (or breaks-and-runs out for that matter)? Now, if the miscued ball would have been left alone and caromed slowly off of the rack and into the corner pocket, it would now be YOUR break with a chance of winning the set and money, instead of your opponent. Under these circumstances do you still feel like you would be a nit for calling the foul, even though it is well within your right to do so? If so, then you must absolutely HATE your money :thumbup:!!!

Maniac

I understand what your saying, and it is right,...
but not for me, the way I look at it, in the long run I'm going to beat you anyway, so what does it matter!


David Harcrow