9-Ball Situation - What Would YOU Do?

Forget the rail effect for a minute. When a cueball hits an object ball, there's a full ball width target from half-ball hit on the left to half-ball hit on the right. Then on top of that there's another half ball on either side. So the normal collision "cross section" is 4.5 inches wide.
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Ah, the joy of fat bullets. And so "rail reflection" can add a full ball's width or more to that (but little to none very near the rail).

pj
chgo
 
bagofpaper said:
Jude, I think you are missing PJ's point which is that shortening the angle of the kick with a draw stroke (or inside) is more difficult to control than kicking naturally and that difference in difficulty will overshadow any gain in percentage you'll get from the approach angle being more shallow.

It's a toss up in my opinion and a matter of what you are more comfortable with. Thanks for pointing out the shot Jude...

EDIT: Remind me to read the whole thread before responding.. lol.
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PJ isn't comfortable with the shot hence he's going to argue his way. That's fine. You should always play to your strengths. With that said, I've spent enough time with this to feel comfortable straightening out the cueball and it's a shot worth knowing. There are plenty of scenarios where it comes up.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Sure. What are you doing this evening?
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Do you guys each have a table at home? If so, hook up a webcam and I'll stream it live for all of AZB to check out! Let's get the action rolling!

Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Do you guys each have a table at home? If so, hook up a webcam and I'll stream it live for all of AZB to check out! Let's get the action rolling!

Dave
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No, I am not doing anything live on a webcam for $10 a ball.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
In other words, no thanks?

How about next time either of us is in the other's town? I'm game any time.

pj
chgo
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You know, I refrain from barking at people online. I think it's absolutely ridiculous, especially when we're in different time zones. It's just like the guy who barks at me from across the room and then asks for weight the moment we get a table. What's the point? Patrick, I know we have our differences. That's fine. I don't get along with everyone here and I know you can say the same about yourself. Let's just leave it at that.

If you're in New York, feel free to let me know. What I like to do, what I'm trained to do is play pool. You want to do that, maybe we can make a plan.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How comfortable are you with it? Let's shoot some kicks your way and mine for $10 a ball.

pj
chgo
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Sounds like an easy way to loose your money.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Patrick, this game is about minute improvements. Improving your percentage here and there adds up. 5% is significant. I think a lot of people don't like this approach because it doesn't work with many kicking systems but the fact is, you are increasing the size of two contact points (the direct hit and rail first) and you can't ignore that.
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I disagree with that shot myself too. I have did it before of course when there are balls in the way of the direct kick.

I think knowing the rail and kicking accurately is enough to worry about without adding in spin and trying to put the right spin to get the right curve to hit it properly. That's too much IMO.

I know both shots and still think kicking naturally into it is the higher % all things considered.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How comfortable are you with it? Let's shoot some kicks your way and mine for $10 a ball.

pj
chgo
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Will this be a voting option for the next IPT Challenge Match?
 
There are plenty of people I'd bark at online if I felt I was popping them good. Jude isn't on that list, though, no matter how I was hitting them.:eek:
 
cubc said:
I disagree with that shot myself too. I have did it before of course when there are balls in the way of the direct kick.

I think knowing the rail and kicking accurately is enough to worry about without adding in spin and trying to put the right spin to get the right curve to hit it properly. That's too much IMO.

I know both shots and still think kicking naturally into it is the higher % all things considered.
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It's like I said in a previous post - There are two factors that would make me kick this way (if I were to kick). First, I'm comfortable with it. I've actually done it enough to know how the cueball is going to react off the rail. Second, I'm trying to make the ball, not just hit it. If I were just trying to hit it, I'd probably go center ball.


Regarding Patrick's challenge, it sorta misses the point of my strategy for the kick. Understand, I'm explaining my thinking, not trying to convince anyone. The kick is not a best of 20. I get ONE shot at it. If I know I can straighten out the angle off the rail, I know I'll have the cueball riding near the rail. That means ANY ball along the rail is going to be sent toward the pocket.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
There are plenty of people I'd bark at online if I felt I was popping them good. Jude isn't on that list, though, no matter how I was hitting them.:eek:
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Honestly, I don't know how you play or how Patrick plays and it really wouldn't be fair for me to guess. I've actually met some GREAT players who I do not agree with half the time they're faced with a challenging decision. One player in my home room plays better than I do and I am constantly befuddled by his decisions. It is important to play the way that you do. In fact, Patrick takes this comment as an insult and it really isn't. No matter what decision you make, you have to believe in it otherwise you'll never get the reaction you want no matter what anyone has to say.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
It's like I said in a previous post - There are two factors that would make me kick this way (if I were to kick). First, I'm comfortable with it. I've actually done it enough to know how the cueball is going to react off the rail. Second, I'm trying to make the ball, not just hit it. If I were just trying to hit it, I'd probably go center ball.


Regarding Patrick's challenge, it sorta misses the point of my strategy for the kick. Understand, I'm explaining my thinking, not trying to convince anyone. The kick is not a best of 20. I get ONE shot at it. If I know I can straighten out the angle off the rail, I know I'll have the cueball riding near the rail. That means ANY ball along the rail is going to be sent toward the pocket.
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Right I understand. This came up the other day in a game with a lesser skilled player and the guy he was playing is pretty good. He told him to do the same thing you just said about reverse english to straighten the cueball out.

It is how you play. He made it his way just as much as I did my way. Either way It's not that hard of a shot. Sometimes that shot comes up from a safety and you have to get shape at the other end of the table. So I'll end up shooting a little left of the mark hard with right english to hit the ball / rail at the same time and spin up there.

When you play enough you know what YOUR game is capable of.

This is one of those shots :)
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
You know, I refrain from barking at people online. I think it's absolutely ridiculous, especially when we're in different time zones.
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Of course it is. It's not expected to happen (although I'd do it); it's meant to make a point.

...Patrick, I know we have our differences. That's fine. I don't get along with everyone here and I know you can say the same about yourself. Let's just leave it at that.
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This isn't about our "differences", Jude. It's about whether kicking with inside spin and draw is really a better technique.

If you're in New York, feel free to let me know. What I like to do, what I'm trained to do is play pool. You want to do that, maybe we can make a plan.
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But you don't bark online, right?

From all accounts you're probably a better player than I am - that helps me make my point. I'm confident I'd have better kicking success despite your edge - because the technique itself is questionable. All this personalizing is just ducking that point.

I'm trying to make the ball, not just hit it. If I were just trying to hit it, I'd probably go center ball.

Regarding Patrick's challenge, it sorta misses the point of my strategy for the kick.
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I think you should take my challenge yourself: hit a bunch your way vs. normally. You don't even have to tell us you did it. But I'll bet (just between you and me) that if you give it a real test you'll change your mind about which is more accurate.

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
This isn't about our "differences", Jude. It's about whether kicking with outside spin and draw is really a better technique.
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Fixt! :):)
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Of course it is. It's not expected to happen (although I'd do it); it's meant to make a point.



This isn't about our "differences", Jude. It's about whether kicking with inside spin and draw is really a better technique.



But you don't bark online, right?

From all accounts you're probably a better player than I am - that helps me make my point. I'm confident I'd have better kicking success despite your edge - because the technique itself is questionable. All this personalizing is just ducking that point.

pj
chgo
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Patrick, when you bark, you make it personal. I can't understand how you would miss that. Listen, I'm TRYING to be civil here. I find your posts antagonistic pretty often and I'm tired of trading barbs with you. You're confident you'd have better kicking success? You do understand, you only control half of that equation. The other half (me) happens to be 800 miles away so what's your point?

Now, I'll be first to admit, I'm always looking for ways to improve but understand this - I didn't improve by accident. It's not like it doesn't matter what I do because all the balls go in for me. So, if you think I'm a better player than you, perhaps you might want to consider what I have to say. Even if you don't agree, at least show a little respect (or refrain from being disrespectful, whichever your preference). I'll try to do the same.
 
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