9ball rules question….

[Bob Jewett]

Here is a situation in which you might want to play a push out even with ball in hand.

The one ball is frozen to the rail very close to a corner pocket. The seven is frozen to the one ball and angled so that there may barely be enough room to pocket the one ball legally. That is, freeze the cue ball to the one ball and the cushion, freeze the seven to both balls and then remove the cue ball.

The two ball is at the other end of the table.

From past history, you don't trust the TD to make the right call.

There is no good way to place the cue ball in the pocket to hit the open part of the one ball.

I claim that the best shot in this position is to call a push out, shoot the one in (perhaps hitting the seven first, but who cares?) and leave a tough shot on the two.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Here is a situation in which you might want to play a push out even with ball in hand.

The one ball is frozen to the rail very close to a corner pocket. The seven is frozen to the one ball and angled so that there may barely be enough room to pocket the one ball legally. That is, freeze the cue ball to the one ball and the cushion, freeze the seven to both balls and then remove the cue ball.

The two ball is at the other end of the table.

From past history, you don't trust the TD to make the right call.

There is no good way to place the cue ball in the pocket to hit the open part of the one ball.

I claim that the best shot in this position is to call a push out, shoot the one in (perhaps hitting the seven first, but who cares?) and leave a tough shot on the two.

Knew you'd come up with one. But what's your position on the OP's question? Is it legal to play a push out after a scratch on the break?

 

[PETROBOY]

The WPA rules state it's not legal to do so


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[Jude Rosenstock]

Here is a situation in which you might want to play a push out even with ball in hand.

The one ball is frozen to the rail very close to a corner pocket. The seven is frozen to the one ball and angled so that there may barely be enough room to pocket the one ball legally. That is, freeze the cue ball to the one ball and the cushion, freeze the seven to both balls and then remove the cue ball.

The two ball is at the other end of the table.

From past history, you don't trust the TD to make the right call.

There is no good way to place the cue ball in the pocket to hit the open part of the one ball.

I claim that the best shot in this position is to call a push out, shoot the one in (perhaps hitting the seven first, but who cares?) and leave a tough shot on the two.

Yes, excellent point but I will argue that another option with nearly equal value would be to deliberately foul, tie-up the 2-ball and offer your opponent an even uglier situation AND forcing him to take the next shot.

I think a fundamental problem with pushing, one you'll simply never be able to get away from is, the incoming player ALWAYS has the right to just make you shoot again. I don't see how this is ever advantageous to the pusher.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Knew you'd come up with one. But what's your position on the OP's question? Is it legal to play a push out after a scratch on the break?

As mentioned several times, there is no push out after a foul break. I think that has always been the rule after a foul break for as long as there has been an official push out rule.

 

[Black-Balled]

I think mos of us have seen the safety exchange where the ob is
Literally surrounded by other balls? There is no way to hit the ob and incoming player is on 2. He jumpss onto the Balkans makes a good hit.

Further that scenario and include the money ball hanging in the hole. Given the chance, wouldn't one want to remove the money ball from the hole?

As already stated, the other player is the first foul.

I guess that technically, the making Of the money ball is taking a foul...

 

[ignomirello]

push out after legal break

I can't imagine a time I'd consider a roll out if I had ball in hand any where on the table. If the layout looked that bad try to play a killer safety and win on the three foul rule. Your opponent is already on one for scratching and if you can lock him or her up well enough they'd be on two then see what happens. I have no idea what layout you are talking about and that's just a thought or option to consider.

I can think of a few

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I can think of a few

I'd really like to see a layout where the absolute correct play is to push after breaker has fouled (assuming it was allowed). I mean, you might be able to come-up with a scenario where pushing might not hurt you but I can't think of a single layout where pushing definitely helps you.

 

[ScottK]

That's it! Run a lap!!

The op says I have bih coz other player scratched.

If the 1 is not hittable and the 9 hangs in the hole, the proper move is to make the 9. Might as well say 'push'. It's a good move, if you can get away with it

I'll take a lap tomorrow night when I go play for the "who's on one first" screw up. And, I see your point, but I still agree with this:

I'd really like to see a layout where the absolute correct play is to push after breaker has fouled (assuming it was allowed). I mean, you might be able to come-up with a scenario where pushing might not hurt you but I can't think of a single layout where pushing definitely helps you.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I'll take a lap tomorrow night when I go play for the "who's on one first" screw up. And, I see your point, but I still agree with this:

Hey, I'm just saying, in the 25 years I've been playing 9ball, I've gotten BIH after the break about a hundred billion times and not one of those times did I think, "Oh, if only I could push!" So, on a practical level, it's safe to say you should never want to push with BIH. But, I think it would be very entertaining for the people that believe pushing can be a strong move to devise a diagram, no matter how ludicrous, that shows pushing as the strongest available option.

 

[ScottK]

Hey, I'm just saying, in the 25 years I've been playing 9ball, I've gotten BIH after the break about a hundred billion times and not one of those times did I think, "Oh, if only I could push!" So, on a practical level, it's safe to say you should never want to push with BIH. But, I think it would be very entertaining for the people that believe pushing can be a strong move to devise a diagram, no matter how ludicrous, that shows pushing as the strongest available option.

I agree with you.
Black-Balled may have come up with the one instance it would make sense.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I agree with you.
Black-Balled may have come up with the one instance it would make sense.

No, I know. I would be curious to see a diagram of Black-Balled's idea.

 

[Black-Balled]

Sorry, peepil.

New job that doesn't allow azb from antyhing other than phone...

But imagine the ob on the rail, two balls attached to it in a manner that precludes a direct hit. Money ball hanging in the hole.

You gotta get that money ball out of the hole.

But like I said before, I guess shooting the money ball is really a foul, not a push.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Sorry, peepil.

New job that doesn't allow azb from antyhing other than phone...

But imagine the ob on the rail, two balls attached to it in a manner that precludes a direct hit. Money ball hanging in the hole.

You gotta get that money ball out of the hole.

But like I said before, I guess shooting the money ball is really a foul, not a push.

If, with BIH, you can't hit the low-ball directly, you're not on a foul and the 9-ball is hanging, I'd say you have a firm grip on your opponent's nuts. Pocketing the 9-ball only loosens your grip. No matter what, an advanced player is still the strong favorite to win from here but your opponent should be more interested in removing the 9-ball from the jaws of the pocket than you. I would take BIH, deliberately foul by tying up the low-ball even more. If you couldn't hit the low-ball, he should be incapable of doing it too and with BIH, he'll be faced with the choice of deliberately fouling to open-up the 1 WITH a hanging 9 or leave the cluster, put himself on 2 fouls and spot the 9. I'd say that's checkmate.

 

[PETROBOY]

There is no good situation where you would want to play a push, If you cant hit the lowest ball and the money ball was over the hole your taking a foul forcing the other player to hit the lowest ball or hes in a heap.

 

[SKUNKBOY]

OK Jude, I think I have a situation where you had BIH after the break, where a push would be to your advantage (that is, if it was legal in the first place, which it's not).

Try this...1 ball froze to the rail, 9 ball not quite froze to the 1 but not on any kind of line that would allow the 9 to be made. So, you call push, gently knock the 9 ball into the 1 so as to create the alignment to make the 1-9 combo if the 1 was hit from the opposite side...and freeze the CB to the rail or 9 ball where the posibility of a legal hit on the 1 did not exist.

That situation would improve your advantage only if the opponent did not just take the second foul and move the 9 ball out of the way. If he tried for an impossible hit, then you might have the advantage to win in one more shot....with BIH.

A lot of if's in that, but it is a situation that could give you an advantage in the OP scenerio.

I love this stuff...Ken

 

[PETROBOY]

OK Jude, I think I have a situation where you had BIH after the break, where a push would be to your advantage (that is, if it was legal in the first place, which it's not).

Try this...1 ball froze to the rail, 9 ball not quite froze to the 1 but not on any kind of line that would allow the 9 to be made. So, you call push, gently knock the 9 ball into the 1 so as to create the alignment to make the 1-9 combo if the 1 was hit from the opposite side...and freeze the CB to the rail or 9 ball where the posibility of a legal hit on the 1 did not exist.

That situation would improve your advantage only if the opponent did not just take the second foul and move the 9 ball out of the way. If he tried for an impossible hit, then you might have the advantage to win in one more shot....with BIH.

A lot of if's in that, but it is a situation that could give you an advantage in the OP scenerio.




I love this stuff...Ken

Ok shoot again What do you do now?

 

[SKUNKBOY]

Wellll, I guess I break up the mess and hope he don't get out. I see your point.

Really, I'm with you guys...I can't see any circumstance to not hit the one and go for a killer safety. Just hought I had something there.

L8R...Ken

 

[PETROBOY]

I thought at first it would be good if allowed but I gave it some thought and really cant see a good use for it, it lets preasure off the breaker he has choices then., best play is run out or go for the throat.

 

[Black-Balled]

Ok shoot again What do you do now?

Then you take the intentional foul.

He fouled first, you will recall