A blunt exchange of opinions on FB.

JB Cases said:
On FB they can each control the conversation and delete interjecting trolls. On here they would all have to fade a ton of trolling with no way to cut those people off at the knees.

That's why they prefer FB IMO.

PLUS it's more personal with the way FB works - easy to use on the phone, easier than Tapatalk.

AND almost everybody is real names on FB. So they don't have to deal with anon trolls either too much.
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PLUS facebook can sell your private info to advertisers and make some coin off you!!!!!!
 
The best way I can respond to this thread is that promoters of professional pool are trying to find a model that works. Right now sixteen man invitational events appear to be working better than our previous model for many reasons; logistics and cost being two big ones. We know that having ALL the matches with top grade players adds to the excitement, and one match at a time lends itself to television or streaming. A field full of no-names is just not attractive to an audience, live or online. Matchroom got this right year ago and now we're figuring it out here.

As for me my plan is two events a year on the West Coast with guaranteed purses and no entry fee. For the record there is NO player that I won't consider for a spot in one of my events. I will continue to put together the best fields possible every time out. Some of the players will change from tournament to tournament, with Shane being about the only "lock" to get in right now. If it's Filipino sponsored like my current event, I will ask Efren, Bustie, Dennis and Lee Vann right off the top. I consider them the four best choices. Alex is a big question mark right now.

Thanks for listening.
 
I could care less if you call BULLSHI T or BATSHI T !!!

You're a hundred percent > THAT'S 100% WRONG

You have > Zero that's ZERO idea what I would do.

Try to get a grip, and stop being so full of yourself.

Oh, and it's nice to see you finally, after a month
realized how silly you appeared telling everyone
who would listen what a genius you are, LOL

Don't let your bias, blind you to the fact, I don't BS.

Have a great day !

Originally posted by, PoolPlayer9:

"I call BS. Major BS. You are so blinded by your bias of wanting to see Rodney play so badly that you can't even be honest with yourself about how you would react if you were actually in this position. If you had a business and one of your individual contractors disrespected you and then tried to publicly bad mouth and harm your business, there is zero chance they would continue being an independent contractor for you. Zero."
 
itsfroze said:
I could care less if you call BULLSHI T or BATSHI T !!!

You're a hundred percent > THAT'S 100% WRONG

You have > Zero that's ZERO idea what I would do.

Try to get a grip, and stop being so full of yourself.

Oh, and it's nice to see you finally, after a month
realized how silly you appeared telling everyone
who would listen what a genius you are, LOL

Don't let your bias, blind you to the fact, I don't BS.

Have a great day !

Originally posted by, PoolPlayer9:

"I call BS. Major BS. You are so blinded by your bias of wanting to see Rodney play so badly that you can't even be honest with yourself about how you would react if you were actually in this position. If you had a business and one of your individual contractors disrespected you and then tried to publicly bad mouth and harm your business, there is zero chance they would continue being an independent contractor for you. Zero."
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I'm still calling BS. You would not accept someone that you put the money in their pocket publicly trying to harm your business. So you are either a liar, just don't know how to even be honest with yourself, or you a masochist (or whatever the correct term would be) that likes to be publicly dominated and abused and who doesn't have enough sense to know that you get rid of the employees that don't help your company as employees/independent contractors should be doing but who would rather see it harmed and who are in fact actively trying to harm it instead. Maybe I am in fact wrong and it is actually the last one instead of one of the first two but I doubt it (trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here).

Nowhere did I try to tell everyone what a genius I am, nowhere did I ever look silly or think I looked silly either one, and after a month nothing happened or changed. I am presuming you are talking about the CTE discussions. And yes, to those on the other side I looked silly in the same way that people that believe the earth is flat see those who are "fooled" into believing it is round as silly. In many arguments both sides see the other as being silly, but usually only one of the sides truly is. But in keeping with this topic, the only person looking silly here is you claiming that you would be perfectly happy to let one of your employees try to harm your business and that you would still love to have them be an employee after they did so because I don't think much of anybody really believes you (unless they first publicly retracted prior statements and you had reasonable assurances it would not happen again, etc). Not unless you are also one of those people that likes to go visit the dominatrix so they can whip you and tell you what a worthless pile of flesh you are, in that case it would change everything as they like to be harmed and abused...lol.

You are just some random person on the internet. We are going to agree about some things, and disagree about some other things. I don't believe you on this one because it defies logic. So what do you want to do now, fight? My suggestion is something that you have mentioned before which is far more applicable here--get over it, and get over yourself. Not everybody is going to believe your every claim, especially when it defies logic.
 
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Are pros employees. They pay an entry fee. With respect to added money. That's what you pay to have pros come play at your event. Otherwise they could just meet up at a pool hall and play each other. I couldn't imagine a job where I have pay to try and make money. I have to compete with my peers to make money. I have to deal with promoters who feel they are putting money in my pocket. These guys are NOT guaranteed any money. They are guaranteed expenses. Those lucky enough to have sponsors have maybe more pressure because they could lose it if they don't perform well. I don't know. Just seems a lot is put on pros who have to hope they can come up with the expenses to play in a fair amount of tourneys. Not everyone is SVB. No disrespect intended. Tiger Woods dominated golf for a long time. He got paid to show up.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
jburkm002 said:
Are pros employees. They pay an entry fee. With respect to added money. That's what you pay to have pros come play at your event. Otherwise they could just meet up at a pool hall and play each other. I couldn't imagine a job where I have pay to try and make money. I have to compete with my peers to make money. I have to deal with promoters who feel they are putting money in my pocket. These guys are NOT guaranteed any money. They are guaranteed expenses. Those lucky enough to have sponsors have maybe more pressure because they could lose it if they don't perform well. I don't know. Just seems a lot is put on pros who have to hope they can come up with the expenses to play in a fair amount of tourneys. Not everyone is SVB. No disrespect intended. Tiger Woods dominated golf for a long time. He got paid to show up.
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Whether they are employees, employers, volunteers, or independent contractors doesn't really make a difference to the discussion IMO. I don't think you are going to continue working with someone, regardless of their position, if they are publicly trying to harm you and your business. It just becomes even more ludicrous if you are the one putting the money in their pocket, but it is plenty ludicrous already even if you aren't.

Even though it really doesn't matter in this discussion, Independent contractors who are paid a performance based commission most closely describes what players in a tournament are IMO. And they are employees in the sense that you are employing the independent contractors, although not employees in the sense of permanently being on your payroll.
 
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PoolPlaya9, somebody doesn't share the same perspective and agree with you, so it defies logic.

Really, that's about right for you. :thumbup:
 
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jburkm002 said:
I couldn't imagine a job where I have pay to try and make money.
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I've tried telling my boss the same thing. Why should I buy clothes I wouldn't wear outside of work, especially when it doesn't affect my performance and I'm seen by almost zero people outside of the company. They should also pay for my gas. My car insurance is increased, too, since I have a commute. The nerve.. :eek:

Even independent contractors will have to submit bids. The bidding process isn't exactly free. If somebody is known to have a poor performance or to be problematic, that's also going to factor into the equation. If they talk bad about the employer, chances are that'll be the last job they get with them. So, all in all, I guess it's like real life/work.

Tiger Woods will pull in hundreds of thousands or millions.. what would a pool player pull in? A hundred bucks?
 
My Christmas wish list for pro pool:

- pro players were not incentivised to do unscrupulous things to get by

- promoters were not incentivised to do unsprupulous things to get by

- we had a clone machine and threw SVB, Oscar & Minn Fats into a blender

- that pro pool could find a way to make it more enjoyable for the masses to watch.

- throw into a bigassblender - Dr Phil, Henry Kissinger, Gengis Khan, Joe Rogan, Jay Helfert, Mark Griffin, Bill Gates, and Walt Disney Corp (primary owner of ESPN) or Murdock, and Barry Hearn.
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KK9 <-- ain't none too happy biting his tongue. THE DECADES' LONG CODE TO KEEP THE CRAP 6 FEET UNDER IS STRONG. I LOVE pro pool, yet the more I see, the more disenfranchised I become. Industry leaders speak with their actions, but they ALL bite their tongue. Speak the F up in unison - none too many lay people truly have a clue what's going on. JMHO

Good thread. Healthy discussion that I can only hope leads to positive change.
 
itsfroze said:
PoolPlaya9, somebody doesn't share the same perspective and agree with you, so it defies logic.

Really, that's about right for you. :thumbup:
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Logic is independent of bias, feeling, emotion, or opinion. You should try it sometime. :thumbup:
 
POV pool streaming is the best thing out or was. I don't know if they still do it but that was the best.

It was a reality show type streams. Real life pool hall, real life customers and real life players. I like that.

I find those sanctioned events to be quite boring.
 
Pros are not even contractors. They are contestants. If they win a prize they are or should be given a 1099 showing that they were paid. They can claim their expenses against that.

No promoter is the boss of any pro. However a promoter can expect a certain level of conduct from the contestants and can forbid players from his contest. By the same token players are not forced to compete. If they were then they would be classified as employees. If they were employees then they would need to be paid a wage and all the applicable taxes paid according to the law.

The test of whether a person is a contractor or an employee is exclusivity and freedom of movement. If a person is free to go to whatever event he wants to without any penalty then he is not an employee. If a promoter demands loyalty by way of restricting movement then the player IS an employee.

None of which has to do with conduct that is incompatible with a promoter's expectations. Whether a contestant, a contractor, or an employee players are expected to comport themselves in such a way as to not upset the apple cart or expect not be invited to attend events.

Now, that said, players can certainly join forces and make demands of their own to protect themselves from unreasonable sanctions. It should be a two way street.

Billie Jean King stood up for women's players in the 70s organizing a threatened boycott of the US Open if they didn't provide equal pay for the women and the US Open capitulated and made it equal prize money.

I am of the opinion that promoters and players should do what they want and water will find it's level so to speak. If players aren't getting invited to the events that they want to attend then they will either have to give in and make peace, go other paths OR quit. Sometimes life forces you to take another direction and it works out for the better.

If your income opportunities are cut then you had better get busy to find or create other ones or starve. Humans, especially American ones, don't like to starve. They usually get busy making something happen.
 
Lumocolor said:
PLUS facebook can sell your private info to advertisers and make some coin off you!!!!!!
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Good for them. If it keeps the lights on for a platform I like then great. I like FB and being able to stay connected to the people in my life, from old friends to new ones to customers.

I like AZB because of the core community of good people. Kind of like being in rough neighborhood but staying because of the good folks that also stay.

I help pay the bills on AZB with my participation., membership and my sponsorship. I guess I help pay FB's bills with my information whatever that's worth to them.
 
JB Cases said:
Pros are not even contractors. They are contestants.

The test of whether a person is a contractor or an employee is exclusivity and freedom of movement. If a person is free to go to whatever event he wants to without any penalty then he is not an employee. If a promoter demands loyalty by way of restricting movement then the player IS an employee.

None of which has to do with conduct that is incompatible with a promoter's expectations. Whether a contestant, a contractor, or an employee players are expected to comport themselves in such a way as to not upset the apple cart or expect not be invited to attend events.
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You made me curious so I did some very quick research. It seems that contestants are considered independent contractors in many, many cases. There may not be much distinction, and when there is a distinction I don't know what that would always be, and it probably varies by state. Reality show contestants appear to generally be considered to be independent contractors, pageant contestants appear to generally be considered to be independent contractors, a marathon runner was considered an independent contractor, and various other contestants were as well, and all or most of them were competing for a prize, just like in pool. I did not find any specific mention of pool.

I also found that the difference between an employee and an independent contractor is actually very muddy waters and not well defined at all by law, and it also varies by state, even though it is not well defined and is muddy waters regardless of state. There is certainly more to it and not quite as clear cut as what you laid out, like whether your boss controls or directs your movements during the day, and many, many other factors, again depending on the state.

The one thing that is certain that you mentioned, is that what pool players playing in a tournament are officially considered to be has exactly zero to do with what was being discussed in the thread which was what behavior a promoter should accept or be expected to accept from them. Regardless of what they are considered, it doesn't change a thing.
 
if the question is what can or can't a promoter do under law, he can include or exclude anyone he wants as long as it is not due to the individual being discriminated against for being in a protected class. e.g. race, religion, etc

so, the promoter can't say "you can't play in my tournament because you are Catholic" but he can say "you can't play in my tournament because you pissed me off"

for those of you that are so wounded, put on your own tournament and you can run it however you want
 
Poolplaya9 said:
You made me curious so I did some very quick research. It seems that contestants are considered independent contractors in many, many cases. There may not be much distinction, and when there is a distinction I don't know what that would always be, and it probably varies by state. Reality show contestants appear to generally be considered to be independent contractors, pageant contestants appear to generally be considered to be independent contractors, a marathon runner was considered an independent contractor, and various other contestants were as well, and all or most of them were competing for a prize, just like in pool. I did not find any specific mention of pool.

I also found that the difference between an employee and an independent contractor is actually very muddy waters and not well defined at all by law, and it also varies by state, even though it is not well defined and is muddy waters regardless of state. There is certainly more to it and not quite as clear cut as what you laid out, like whether your boss controls or directs your movements during the day, and many, many other factors, again depending on the state.

The one thing that is certain that you mentioned, is that what pool players playing in a tournament are officially considered to be has exactly zero to do with what was being discussed in the thread which was what behavior a promoter should accept or be expected to accept from them. Regardless of what they are considered, it doesn't change a thing.
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I thought about it later and figured that some contests would treat their contestants as contractors.



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